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I agree that (based on anecdotal evidence) EC modifications will not break people's cars. I do not agree that they will not wear them out faster than had they not been modified.
I totally understand and expect that there is increased wear if the engine is modified to produce more power (hp/tq). What I am trying to get an idea on is how much extra wear and tear this will cause, at mostly everyday kind of driving (e.g. no track, very limited top end), to the point that major repairs/parts replacements are required.

That, and if switching map and/or ECU will be trackable, e.g. if some system in the car keeps a log (or similar) that will show that the ECU was replaced.

FWIW, I am seriously considering trying this mod. I already have the GFB diverter valve from EC, and am very happy with it. But being an engineer (albeit not mechanical/automotive) I like to quantify any risk (increased wear in this case) prior to committing to it. I'd like to imagine that I'm not the only one ;)

Thx, S
 

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I do agree, what I do not agree with is that wear is linear within those design parameters.

I agree that (based on anecdotal evidence) EC modifications will not break people's cars. I do not agree that they will not wear them out faster than had they not been modified.

As I've said earlier, that is not to disparage EC, however a specific question was asked by sl_austin.
I partially agree with you Pete...there is most likely some additional wear...but I don't believe it will lead to premature failure...the high horsepower 500s with over 100k miles back up my thoughts on this...time will tell I suppose...I enjoy our discussions and quite often I continue to learn which is always a good thing:D
 

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I totally understand and expect that there is increased wear if the engine is modified to produce more power (hp/tq). What I am trying to get an idea on is how much extra wear and tear this will cause, at mostly everyday kind of driving (e.g. no track, very limited top end), to the point that major repairs/parts replacements are required.
There are numerous variables to consider, but all else being equal anecdotal evidence suggests that any increased wear will be of no concern to you during your period of ownership.

No one can give you a percentage because the R&D budgets of any aftermarket firm are simply not big enough.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Unless EC is pulling down and inspecting engines, turbos, gearboxes, etc. then there is no way they can possibly answer that question with any degree of accuracy.
We have done that! So yes, we do know how well these engines hold up with a high degree of accuracy. Except of course for the gear box, but this manual transmission has a pretty solid history in the Miata community so we have that information to go with. As far at the engine and turbo, we have absolutely pulled one apart and inspected it.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #29
I totally understand and expect that there is increased wear if the engine is modified to produce more power (hp/tq). What I am trying to get an idea on is how much extra wear and tear this will cause, at mostly everyday kind of driving (e.g. no track, very limited top end), to the point that major repairs/parts replacements are required.

That, and if switching map and/or ECU will be trackable, e.g. if some system in the car keeps a log (or similar) that will show that the ECU was replaced.

FWIW, I am seriously considering trying this mod. I already have the GFB diverter valve from EC, and am very happy with it. But being an engineer (albeit not mechanical/automotive) I like to quantify any risk (increased wear in this case) prior to committing to it. I'd like to imagine that I'm not the only one ;)

Thx, S
I totally understand your point. Any extra wear is essentially negligible. It's literally so low that I can't really measure it. We tested and engine to destruction a few years ago which actually took a lot of effort to blow up. When we took it apart we found that other than the failed parts (piston crowns) everything was on spec, bearings, rings (except the top one obviously) cylinders, everything.

The transmissions and Diffs are shared with Mazdas. Mazda knows darn well that people will modify these cars. I think the Miata/MX-5 is one of the most commonly modded cars in history. I have heard of numerous cases of these transmission in handling 300hp and even more in NC MX5s. Other than sycnros which the driver wears and has nothing to do with power I haven't heard of these things wearing out.

So we have good data for the engine, and good data for the manual transmission. We lack some data for the automatic (although we have some like input and output shaft sizes etc.) and diff but all indications are than they are going to be fine. Keep in mind, this tune is only a little bit hotter than the hottest factory tune in the 500 Abarth which has lighter duty drivetrain parts based on what we can see.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Hi Greg,

I'm going to go the ECU route. Where is the ECU located?

Thanks
I was going to play my video game today (Rise of Flight), but these questions keep poring in. I'm not complaining though.

That's a good question. I suppose I should make a tutorial on removing the ECU.

It's located under the hood aft of the factory air cleaner box and forward of the engine. It has two large electrical plugs on the top. You unplug those, then remove the nuts holding on the bracket and ECU and it comes right out. Oh, DISCONNECT THE BATTERY FIRST. Anytime you are going to disconnect or reconnect an ECU in this car, disconnect the battery first. That goes for the engine ECU, body control module or transmission control module (automatics only).

Greg
 

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I was going to play my video game today (Rise of Flight), but these questions keep poring in. I'm not complaining though.

That's a good question. I suppose I should make a tutorial on removing the ECU.

It's located under the hood aft of the factory air cleaner box and forward of the engine. It has two large electrical plugs on the top. You unplug those, then remove the nuts holding on the bracket and ECU and it comes right out. Oh, DISCONNECT THE BATTERY FIRST. Anytime you are going to disconnect or reconnect an ECU in this car, disconnect the battery first. That goes for the engine ECU, body control module or transmission control module (automatics only).

Greg
Get yourself a V4 intake and its even easier to get to...;)
 

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Greg ....will there be a day when sending ECU's to you are not required? ....but, a day when a modular can be plugged into the ODDII for said tuning? AND, Phase 2, can you shed some light?
 

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...but, a day when a modular can be plugged into the ODDII for said tuning?
Unless FCA remove the block on flashing through the OBDII (which is highly unlikely), then no.

An ECU exchange program would be a happy medium though I suppose, but that said, would require some sort of deposit scheme though which becomes bothersome to manage.
 

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Unless FCA remove the block on flashing through the OBDII (which is highly unlikely), then no.

An ECU exchange program would be a happy medium though I suppose.
In the early days of OBDII that is how they were doing it...they would have a core charge if you didn't return your ECU within 30 days...as time passed ECUs got down to a little over $100 so everyone was keeping theirs to go back to original tune if needed....;)
 

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Hi Greg, two questions. First what affect does this tune have on the speed button? Does it improve performance or is it no longer needed? Second, times when getting the vehicle serviced by the dealer they will download and install new image to the vehicle (update the software) will this have an affect on the ECU will it require resending it back to EU or will it update fine?

Cheers,
Dave
 

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Greg can you post a dyno associated with the stage 1 tune?. Also if stage 1 will optimize to intake and exhaust what will stage 2 be? Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Greg ....will there be a day when sending ECU's to you are not required? ....but, a day when a modular can be plugged into the ODDII for said tuning?

Steve, that's tough for me to say. I can't predict when or even if that will ever happen. My best guess is that it's years away. Let's keep in mind that the 2014 500 Abarth owners are still waiting for a tune of any kind. They are already jealous that this is out for the 124 so soon.

AND, Phase 2, can you shed some light?
I can shed some light there. Phase 2 is probably at least 6 months away, although that could change. There will likely be an upcharge for Phase 2, however people that buy Phase 1 initially and then upgrade later will get a discount. So it won't cost more to get Phase 1 and then upgrade rather than wait for Phase 2.

We expect power to be around 220+whp, perhaps 230, but it will require careful attention to oil change and airfilter cleaning intervals. It will likely require slightly cooler plugs, which don't self clean very well so plug changes will be more frequent, an Intake upgrade, and preferably a V4 will be strongly suggested. Phase 2 simply won't be for everyone.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Hi Greg, two questions. First what affect does this tune have on the speed button?
Speed button? If you mean your car can adjust the radio volume to the speed of the car, it has no effect.

If you mean the Sport Button, we can do about whatever you want. Typically, we would improve the non-sport mode tune, and put our Phase 1 tune in Sport mode.

Second, times when getting the vehicle serviced by the dealer they will download and install new image to the vehicle (update the software) will this have an affect on the ECU will it require resending it back to EU or will it update fine?

Cheers,
Dave
I am going to have to get some info on this from Toby before I can offer a complete answer. I can say that with the clone option you could swap out the ECUs before hand so it would be a non issue. Also, I strongly suspect there will be some dealers that offer this tune so in those cases you could just tell them you have it and they won't flash it. I do think that the dealers could flash over it, but again, I need to double check that because it's more complex than you might think. Perhaps some sort of OBD2 port cover in in order here.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #40
An ECU exchange program would be a happy medium though I suppose, but that said, would require some sort of deposit scheme though which becomes bothersome to manage.
I know what you are saying here Pete, and five years ago you would have been absolutely right, with some cars even a year ago. However today, we absolutely have to have your ECU to do this. We can't tune an ECU without having it here, and we can't make a clone of it without having it here to read it. So there is just no way to set up an exchange program. That's unfortunate, but.....modern cars.

Greg
 
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