Fiat 124 Spider Forum banner
1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I fitted some Eibach Pro springs last year, I had a wheel alignment afterwards, but I am certain that they returned aligned based upon the factory presets. I read somewhere that the lowered springs would require different alignment setting. Brian at GoodWin racing was very helpful and gave me the Progress spring settings, but I saw these settings on the Mazda ND forum, which were specific to the Eibach Pro, they are:

Total Toe in: 1.6mm (.80mm either side)
Camber Front/ Rear: -1.5 degs
Castor: 8 degs

Are there any thoughts out there, much appreciated if you could share.
 

·
Registered
2018 Abarth 124 Spider, Mare Blue / Nero Abarth Leather, Brembo's, Record Monza, Automatic
Joined
·
1,251 Posts
I fitted some Eibach Pro springs last year, I had a wheel alignment afterwards, but I am certain that they returned aligned based upon the factory presets. I read somewhere that the lowered springs would require different alignment setting. Brian at GoodWin racing was very helpful and gave me the Progress spring settings, but I saw these settings on the Mazda ND forum, which were specific to the Eibach Pro, they are:

Total Toe in: 1.6mm (.80mm either side)
Camber Front/ Rear: -1.5 degs
Castor: 8 degs

Are there any thoughts out there, much appreciated if you could share.
Hi Walshy, I'm thinking toe and caster numbers are good, but that the camber numbers might be a bit strong - especially in the front. Here is an illustration for how to determine ride height as noted in the service manual, and charts for the alignment specs that reference the ride height obtained from the measurements:
Wheel Tire Automotive lighting Automotive tire Hood
Personal computer Computer Computer monitor Laptop Gadget
Computer Personal computer Gadget Output device Operating system
Hope you can enlarge the images and be able to read the numbers. Please note that most of the rear camber specs say "front camber" - I think this is a typo. (Figures - I see that alot in factory service manuals). Anyway, as the ride height is lowered, preferred camber numbers go more negative and caster values increase. I'm thinking going a full -1.5 both front and rear would be desirable when tracking or auto crossing the car (where you would probably not be as concerned with tire wear) - but for street use only you might find that excessive and I suspect you will end up with increased, excessive wear on the inside half of the tread area. Hope this all helps Walshy! Happy Spidering, Best, s. P.S.: I plan on putting Eibachs on my car soon, along with some PS4s's - had some good discussions with Ron about this. Have you seen or heard from him lately? Damn, I miss him!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi Walshy, I'm thinking toe and caster numbers are good, but that the camber numbers might be a bit strong - especially in the front. Here is an illustration for how to determine ride height as noted in the service manual, and charts for the alignment specs that reference the ride height obtained from the measurements: View attachment 91848 View attachment 91849 View attachment 91850 Hope you can enlarge the images and be able to read the numbers. Please note that most of the rear camber specs say "front camber" - I think this is a typo. (Figures - I see that alot in factory service manuals). Anyway, as the ride height is lowered, preferred camber numbers go more negative and caster values increase. I'm thinking going a full -1.5 both front and rear would be desirable when tracking or auto crossing the car (where you would probably not be as concerned with tire wear) - but for street use only you might find that excessive and I suspect you will end up with increased, excessive wear on the inside half of the tread area. Hope this all helps Walshy! Happy Spidering, Best, s. P.S.: I plan on putting Eibachs on my car soon, along with some PS4s's - had some good discussions with Ron about this. Have you seen or heard from him lately? Damn, I miss him!
Hi Steve, thank you, I appreciate the response. So what camber number would you suggest? I miss Ron but I think he got fed up with the administrators. I miss him a lot, a real character and a nice guy as well. I’ve not heard a bean from him, but hope he’ll revisit the site at some point.
 

·
Registered
2018 Abarth 124 Spider, Mare Blue / Nero Abarth Leather, Brembo's, Record Monza, Automatic
Joined
·
1,251 Posts
No problem @Walshy6677 , I think when I do mine (my car is still in winter storage, bought the springs over the winter), I'm going to get the car on the alignment rack and see where it's at right now, including measuring the ride height and see exactly what I've got - cuz those harsh Bridgestones are wearing perfectly, and that tells me the alignment is spot on. Then I will refer to the charts and adjust what I had to the new ride height. If I was in your position, and didn't know what the original readings were (or, hopefully, they gave you a printout of before and after readings when they did the alignment?) I would just go by the chart from the manual (and maybe add a -.25 to the front camber only - caster at 8 would be fine). If you can't read the numbers in the charts, please give me a shout and I'll try to do better. As for Ron, Yes . . . I enjoyed reading his writings, good humor, good intent, I considered him an online friend. I was thinking you and Arthur were gonna meet up with him for lunch some day - if you do, please tell him I said Hi, and hope he is doing well. So sad about his wife. And, I too hope he gets back to this forum. Happy Spidering Walshy, Best, s
 

·
Registered
2018 Abarth 124 Spider, Mare Blue / Nero Abarth Leather, Brembo's, Record Monza, Automatic
Joined
·
1,251 Posts
PS: When you have an alignment done, there are a few things to keep in mind. Many techs don't bother themselves with several items, including cross-camber, cross-caster and thrust angle. If the readings on the screen are green, they hit "Print", and out the car goes. A car will pull to the side of the car that has the most positive camber (top of the wheel out to the side more than the bottom), and to the side of the car with the most negative caster (caster is the relationship of the upper ball joint to the lower ball joint in a front to rear direction - positive caster has the upper ball joint ( or upper strut mount ) behind the lower ball joint. Specs will say something like .1 deg. Camber +/- .5 deg., with a .5 deg. cross camber allowable. But most alignment machine screens will show "green" with a 1 deg. cross caster - not good. Cross camber should be as close to spec. ( In this case the .1 deg ) as possible, as camber can effect not only pulling but tire wear too! This is why we use caster to compensate for road crown. So, Walshy, if you have alot of crowned roads ( for those who aren't familiar with the term, a crowned road is one that is higher in the center than on the sides to allow for rain/water runoff) some deviation in cross-caster is good, as the car will track straight on a crowned road - so something like 7.9 deg. R/side, 8.1 deg. L/side - or close to that ( sides being determined by sitting in the driver's seat, NOT by looking at the front of the car) would be appropriate for crowned roads in the UK. For USA, Canada, etc. where we have left hand drive, you would want 7.9 deg. caster on the left, 8.1 on the right for our example. We use caster to compensate for crown because caster does not effect tire wear like camber does. And there is a maximum cross caster spec too, because it will cause pull. Also, there is this thing called thrust angle. That has to do with toe - if the rear wheels are both pointed in the same direction ( say left pointed out, right pointed in) then you will have a car that drifts off the center line of travel. When you get your alignment printout, thrust angle should be as close to 0 deg. as possible. Toe issues will cause tire wear problems, front toe issues will not cause a pull but will cause the car to feel twitchy or vague. So I like to set things as close to spec as I can get, paying close attention to the "cross" numbers as well as the base spec, and getting the thrust angle to zero. It takes time, but pays dividends in handling and tire wear. Of course, if somebody requests a bit more negative camber for handling purposes, or a bit more caster for stability ( imagine trying to ride a bicycle with the handlebars turned 180 so the fork points backwards!) I am happy to oblige. Best, s
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
PS: When you have an alignment done, there are a few things to keep in mind. Many techs don't bother themselves with several items, including cross-camber, cross-caster and thrust angle. If the readings on the screen are green, they hit "Print", and out the car goes. A car will pull to the side of the car that has the most positive camber (top of the wheel out to the side more than the bottom), and to the side of the car with the most negative caster (caster is the relationship of the upper ball joint to the lower ball joint in a front to rear direction - positive caster has the upper ball joint ( or upper strut mount ) behind the lower ball joint. Specs will say something like .1 deg. Camber +/- .5 deg., with a .5 deg. cross camber allowable. But most alignment machine screens will show "green" with a 1 deg. cross caster - not good. Cross camber should be as close to spec. ( In this case the .1 deg ) as possible, as camber can effect not only pulling but tire wear too! This is why we use caster to compensate for road crown. So, Walshy, if you have alot of crowned roads ( for those who aren't familiar with the term, a crowned road is one that is higher in the center than on the sides to allow for rain/water runoff) some deviation in cross-caster is good, as the car will track straight on a crowned road - so something like 7.9 deg. R/side, 8.1 deg. L/side - or close to that ( sides being determined by sitting in the driver's seat, NOT by looking at the front of the car) would be appropriate for crowned roads in the UK. For USA, Canada, etc. where we have left hand drive, you would want 7.9 deg. caster on the left, 8.1 on the right for our example. We use caster to compensate for crown because caster does not effect tire wear like camber does. And there is a maximum cross caster spec too, because it will cause pull. Also, there is this thing called thrust angle. That has to do with toe - if the rear wheels are both pointed in the same direction ( say left pointed out, right pointed in) then you will have a car that drifts off the center line of travel. When you get your alignment printout, thrust angle should be as close to 0 deg. as possible. Toe issues will cause tire wear problems, front toe issues will not cause a pull but will cause the car to feel twitchy or vague. So I like to set things as close to spec as I can get, paying close attention to the "cross" numbers as well as the base spec, and getting the thrust angle to zero. It takes time, but pays dividends in handling and tire wear. Of course, if somebody requests a bit more negative camber for handling purposes, or a bit more caster for stability ( imagine trying to ride a bicycle with the handlebars turned 180 so the fork points backwards!) I am happy to oblige. Best, s
Thanks Steve, yes, I can see what you are saying, especially around the camber. I am in the US for a few more weeks, back to the UK in early May, this will be the first job but I will take measurements first and then calculate the correct settings front and rear, this has been very helpful, thank you.
 

·
Premium Member
2018 124 Abarth
Joined
·
385 Posts
  • Like
Reactions: SteveP.

·
Registered
2018 Abarth 124 Spider, Mare Blue / Nero Abarth Leather, Brembo's, Record Monza, Automatic
Joined
·
1,251 Posts
Thanks Steve, yes, I can see what you are saying, especially around the camber. I am in the US for a few more weeks, back to the UK in early May, this will be the first job but I will take measurements first and then calculate the correct settings front and rear, this has been very helpful, thank you.
You are welcome ! Gotta be careful with the camber, don't want it looking like this:
Tire Wheel Car Land vehicle Vehicle
😀. s
 

·
Premium Member
2018 124 Abarth
Joined
·
385 Posts
Julia, your alignment tech is a "Keepah"! 😀. s
Steve, I don't know what's happening with this site today. I cannot see my own post and I cannot delete it to re-post it. I know the guys at the Yoi Kazoku drift shop are GREAT.
 

·
Premium Member
2018 124 Abarth
Joined
·
385 Posts
I couldn’t see your post either, but I would like too, see if you can repost in some way.
Here's trying the repost: I have my Abarth 124 set up with Bilsteins, Eibach Pro Kit, and Megan sway bars front and rear.

My ride heights are LF=13 1/8, RF= 13 3/8 (because of battery location), LR=13 ½, RR= 13 ½.

I autocross the car, drive the twisties for fun in the Hill Country, and get groceries, run errands on 245-17 Continental Extreme Contact all season tires on 8” rims. Here’s how my local speed shop set me up with a PRECISION alignment.
Font Plant Gas Technology Parallel
 
  • Like
Reactions: pikeman and SteveP.

·
Premium Member
2018 124 Abarth
Joined
·
385 Posts
I couldn’t see your post either, but I would like too, see if you can repost in some way.
The repost worked!! Hurrah. Notice on the alignment sheet that the front is slightly towed out which helps a bit with darting into a corner, while the rear is towed in enough to keep the car tracking straight on the streets and highways. Wheel Tire Car Land vehicle Vehicle
 
  • Like
Reactions: SteveP.

·
Registered
2018 Abarth 124 Spider, Mare Blue / Nero Abarth Leather, Brembo's, Record Monza, Automatic
Joined
·
1,251 Posts
Hi @Julia DeGrace , I had no problem seeing your alignment report this morning, but all seems ok now with the second posting. Usually we put a bit of toe-in on the front of a rear wheel drive car, as the forces at work while driving have a tendency to pull that toe in to a zero toe. Conversely, with a front wheel drive car we normally run a bit of toe out, as the front drive system tends to pull the toe to zero. All that having been said, I know you track your car, and with that in mind I think the gentleman that did your alignment did a great job. It was your writings (and I thank you for that), along with Ron and a couple of others, that led me to purchase a set of Eibach's to use with my Bilsteins and some Michelin PS4s's - the idea is to help fill the wheel openings only as I do not track my car. Happy Spidering, Best, s
 

·
Premium Member
2018 124 Abarth
Joined
·
385 Posts
Hi @Julia DeGrace , I had no problem seeing your alignment report this morning, but all seems ok now with the second posting. Usually we put a bit of toe-in on the front of a rear wheel drive car, as the forces at work while driving have a tendency to pull that toe in to a zero toe. Conversely, with a front wheel drive car we normally run a bit of toe out, as the front drive system tends to pull the toe to zero. All that having been said, I know you track your car, and with that in mind I think the gentleman that did your alignment did a great job. It was your writings (and I thank you for that), along with Ron and a couple of others, that led me to purchase a set of Eibach's to use with my Bilsteins and some Michelin PS4s's - the idea is to help fill the wheel openings only as I do not track my car. Happy Spidering, Best, s
The toe in and toe out I have seems to work very well. The car is really pleasant to drive. I would love to have a set of mounted PS4s to use in the summer autocrosses. Sadly, my little condo has no room to store tires. My Continental all-seasons are not the worst I could pick for autocross but they sure aren't sticky. My class is allowed to use any sticky tires with treadware above 200. My Contis are 560. (they should last forever) I'm always last in class at autocross, but I'm narrowing the gap. I've learned to keep my foot off the brake except when absolutely needed. I'm working now on just going faster, expanding my comfort level.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SteveP.

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That is very helpful, thank you. My use is more ‘road trip’ and long weekend drives. I need the car to be fun, but Drivable and I feel I have a good idea about where I need to be set up ‘wise’.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
So, I just got back to the UK and time to book the wheel allignment. I have measured the ride heights and: FL- 323mm, FR - 320mm, RL - 339mm and RR - 337mm. It is interesting to note that the Eibach Pro kit lowers the suspension significantly more in Europe than it does in the USA. Anyway, there aren’t camber/ caster settings in the manual for this ride height and so I used @Julia DeGrace settings as a guide for the camber settings, but put them between those and the workshop manual. For toe and caster I used the manual (for caster at the lowest height setting) and this is where I ended up. I will book the allignement next week, but before I hand this sheet to the technician, I would be grateful for thoughts/ input. Thanking all in anticipation.
Tire Wheel Vehicle Toy Automotive tire
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
2018 124 Abarth
Joined
·
385 Posts
So, I just got back to the UK and time to book the wheel allignment. I have measured the ride heights and: FL- 323mm, FR - 320mm, RL - 339mm and RR - 337mm. It is interesting to note that the Eibach Pro kit lowers the suspension significantly more in Europe than it does in the USA.
Hi Walshy, Based on your ride heights and my ride heights with the US Eibachs of average 13 1/4", the Euro spec lowers from 1/2 to 3/4" more. (13 - 19mm)
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top