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Discussion Starter #1
I would like to change oil on the automatic gearbox, I know it is premature at only 10,000km but I would like to remove any residuals from break-in, but I have the following doubts:

1) What gear box does our car? The initials Fiat AW6R31 which then pretend to be Aisin B400, while on the sister mx5 it is called j6a-el /1 now here comes the big doubt, from several searches on forums and spare sites for automatics it is not clear if it corresponds to TB65sn (320nm) or TB61sn (480nm). The Toyota gt86 and Subaru brz should also be fitted with the same TX6A-el gearbox

2) jws 3309 or 3324, fca it seems that on a vague document it has changed specification to 3324, here in Europe we have no knowledge of it, while Mazda recommends the 3309 and Toyota 3324. what a mess !! I understand that from 3309 to 3324 many things change, besides the flashiness, also the additives and the base, the first is mineral and the second synthetic, therefore two completely different oils, even Toyota explains that t-iv and t-ws are not interchangeable. So I wouldn't want to put a universal oil, I would like to stay on one of the two specifications but which one?
I would like to share with you my info, maybe im wrong or maybe some of you have direct experience on the ATF oil change, I hope it is an interesting discussion and manages to resolve my doubts.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
According to this video our gearbox is A960E and as you can see at minute 32 the recommended oil is T-WS or 3324 ?? (Mazda roadster 2.0L v6 ??) possible that mazda and fca recommend a wrong oil?

 

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I'm seeing AW6R31 listed as an official spec. The transmission fluid is a bit of an oddball spec, as it has high performance requriements but is a higher viscosity than the low-viscosity ATFs most makers are using now.

AMSOIL makes two transmission fluids for this car, one of which was JUST released in our Easy-Pack packaging, which would make it super easy to change. Check it out here:

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/transmission-fluid/automatic/signature-series-multi-vehicle-synthetic-automatic-transmission-fluid/?code=ATFPK-EA&zo=5224266



We have a cheaper option too (the OE Multi-Vehicle ATF), but most people go with the Signature Series when ordering AMSOIL.

Typically, ATF fluid procedure on modern "sealed" automatics involves draining the fluid, then refilling it and adjusting level while ensuring the transmission is operating at a specific temperature range. It's a bit easier to drain the fluid, measure what you drained out, and put exactly that much back in.

Let me know if you'd be interesetd in ordering some and I can pull up a quote. I'll make another reply here with the official change procedure.
 

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The service manual tells you to remove the fluid check plug, which is a Torx bolt.


Then, remove the transmission drain plug (after having removed the belly pans).


Check the transmission temperature with a scan tool.

Use the special Mopar transmission dipstick tool to check fluid level using the check/fill port you removed the plug from in the first step, part number 2025600210, available for about $32: https://www.moparessentialtools.com/item-detail.aspx?itemid=32810008&type=tools

Cross-reference your fluid level on the tool according to the temperature chart here:


The service manual doesn't tell you how much fluid is drained, only that the total capacity is 7.8 quarts/7.5 liters. Typically, I've seen automatic transmissions drain about 1/3-2/3 of their fluid when the drain plug is pulled so I'd have 5 quarts on hand just in case. Absolute worst case, you can put some of the old stuff back in, but you're definitely not draining the full 7.8 quarts on a single drain/fill.

If you want to save yourself $32 on the tool and you don't have any transmission leaks, you can just measure what comes out and put that much back in.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I'm seeing AW6R31 listed as an official spec. The transmission fluid is a bit of an oddball spec, as it has high performance requriements but is a higher viscosity than the low-viscosity ATFs most makers are using now.

AMSOIL makes two transmission fluids for this car, one of which was JUST released in our Easy-Pack packaging, which would make it super easy to change. Check it out here:

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/transmission-fluid/automatic/signature-series-multi-vehicle-synthetic-automatic-transmission-fluid/?code=ATFPK-EA&zo=5224266



We have a cheaper option too (the OE Multi-Vehicle ATF), but most people go with the Signature Series when ordering AMSOIL.

Typically, ATF fluid procedure on modern "sealed" automatics involves draining the fluid, then refilling it and adjusting level while ensuring the transmission is operating at a specific temperature range. It's a bit easier to drain the fluid, measure what you drained out, and put exactly that much back in.

Let me know if you'd be interesetd in ordering some and I can pull up a quote. I'll make another reply here with the official change procedure.


XR thanks for your intervention, I will definitely evaluate the amsoil fluid, the problem is which one to use .... according to the Ameridian specifications from the Mopar update it would result in 3324 so the correct fluid is ATL amsoil ... do you think so? moreover if it is true that our gearbox is an a960and the 3324 specification would be correct, where do you get the information that our gearbox needs more viscosity?

Thank you
 

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XR thanks for your intervention, I will definitely evaluate the amsoil fluid, the problem is which one to use .... according to the Ameridian specifications from the Mopar update it would result in 3324 so the correct fluid is ATL amsoil ... do you think so? moreover if it is true that our gearbox is an a960and the 3324 specification would be correct, where do you get the information that our gearbox needs more viscosity?



Thank you
AMSOIL's recommendation for this specific vehicle (I pulled up a 2017 124 Spider) is the multi-vehicle ATF. They cross reference manufacturer specifications for those recommendations and I trust them to be accurate. As a result, I believe that the multi-vehicle ATF is the appropriate recommendation.

AMSOIL is quite careful about the recommendations because they carry a legal liability. AMSOIL's warranty states that if your engine/transmission/equipment suffers a failure as a result of their fluid at the interval they recommend for it, they will repair or replace the component at their expense.

The multi-vehicle ATF is a higher viscosity than the fuel-efficient ATF, which is the only reason I commented on the fluid being a higher viscosity. I didn't say that the transmission needs it, but rather that's what the specification shows based on AMSOIL's recommendation in the product guide. In my experience, AMSOIL is very careful on their product recommendations.

Sent from my BlackBerry Key2 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Starting to wonder if people are making assumptions that both cars use the same transmission.

AMSOIL's product guide specifically calls out AW6R31.

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This gear has been baptized with more names, as you can read on the first post, but in practice it is identical to mx5 NC / ND. Fiat in the assembly line in Hiroshima changes only the engine and other details of minor importance, the transmission is identical to the Mazda. here comes my doubt: why is Aisin Toyota the gear manufacturer recommends using 3324 and Mazda 3309 ?? Fiat does not even take it into consideration, they are not very credible. The fact is that I would like to use the 3324 to increase the performance of the gearbox is to protect the internal organs ... the greater visosity of 3309 does not help. I would like to try to clarify this point to get the most out of our car. Thanks again for your contribution !!
 

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This gear has been baptized with more names, as you can read on the first post, but in practice it is identical to mx5 NC / ND. Fiat in the assembly line in Hiroshima changes only the engine and other details of minor importance, the transmission is identical to the Mazda. here comes my doubt: why is Aisin Toyota the gear manufacturer recommends using 3324 and Mazda 3309 ?? Fiat does not even take it into consideration, they are not very credible. The fact is that I would like to use the 3324 to increase the performance of the gearbox is to protect the internal organs ... the greater visosity of 3309 does not help. I would like to try to clarify this point to get the most out of our car. Thanks again for your contribution !!
Keep in mind even the higher viscosity spec is fairly thin in the lubrication world. Some manual transmissions even call for it. It is possible that the recommendation is made due to expected torque and heat.

I'll do some more digging into the transmission model AMSOIL publishes in their product guide. I'm confident making the recommendation knowing AMSOIL stands by it and offers their own warranty against failure.

I'm tempted to buy a quart of the Mopar fluid and send it in for analysis if my research is inconclusive.

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Discussion Starter #12
I'm kind of questioning the Mopar document myself. I've looked up the AT fluid in Mopar's catalog https://21stcenturyfiat124spider.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/mopar-chemical-catalog.pdf and on page 11, it actually states 3309 too. Perhaps I should remove any references to any fluid other than the Mopar 68333587AA

Very confusing!
You are right there is a bit of confusion,you think that two weeks ago I talked to three FCA responsibles to know when I would have the recall for the automatic gearbox, FCA Italia claimed that the 124 PRODUCT in Italy did not need the recall ... only those made in the USA, I pointed out that ALL the 124 are produced in Japan and the transmission is the same for all !! in fact last Friday they announced also in Italy the recall for the transmission .... and I could continue .... on the service manual Abarth / Fiat 124 the gear ratio and 4.1 for the AT but in reality it is 3.583 !!! this the last straw ask for information about it continue to claim that it is 4.1 !!! this is FCA! now a serious company like Amsoil and others to sell their products trusts the features that FCA proclaims for their models, but in the case of the 124 they don't know, unbelievable but so ... unfortunately the 124 / Mx5 project was long abandoned in FCA and taken little serious.

Regarding the AT oil the best thing is to ask Aisin directly. I believe that a 3324 is very likely.
 

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A bit more research.

In AMSOIL's product guide, the transmission listed for the 124 Spider is AW6R31, and recommends the multi-vehicle ATF, with a total capacity of 7.9 quarts. For the ND Miata, AMSOIL lists the SJ6A-EL, and also recommends the multi-vehicle ATF, with a total capacity of 7.6 quarts.

AMSOIL has the transmission right. In the FIAT service manual, the automatic transmission is listed as Automatic - AW6R31. In Mazda's service manual, the automatic transmission is listed as SJ6A-EL. The transmissions are in fact different; the Mazda transmission's fill plug is horizontal, whereas the FIAT's appears to be vertical (hence the use of the specialty tool to check fluid.

Here is the fluid level tool inserted into the 124 Spider transmission. As you can see, the oil pan is at the bottom, and the tool sits vertically.



Now, here is the location of the filler plug on the ND Miata, where the fluid is asjusted as an "overflow style," where fluid must be checked at a specific temperature range, and fluid added until excess fluid pours out (like our manuals):



Both of these images were taken from each car's respective service manuals. I would suggest that they are not the same transmission, with differences in fill plug location and total capacity at minimum. I'm not sure what else is different about them.

Lastly, Mazda recommends in their own service manual, "Mazda Genuine JWS3309."
 

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It would appear to me that there are two transmissions; one that bolts up to Mazda's 2.0L 4-cyl, and one that bolts up to FIAT's 1.4L Multiair turbo, which FIAT clearly borrowed from the 500 Abarth.

I suspect the bell housing is different, as is the fluid capacity and fill/drain plug as well. I can cross-reference specifications for both in the service manual as well if need be, but at least on some level, they are two different transmissions. You will most likely not be able to grab a Mazda transmission if you managed to grenade yours and expect it to bolt up. I'm just hypothesizing here.

I decided to do a bit more digging I found a MOPAR catalog where the Mopar fluid part number was listed; 68333587AA (which I pulled from the service manual).

https://www.dealers-mopar.com/resources/pdf/chemical/chemical-catalog.pdf

Right next to it, it says: Long Life Automatic Transmission Fluid DAF 6-SPD AISIN JWS3309. JWS3309 is what's listed in the Mazda service manual. A search for JWS 3309 takes us to Mobil 1 ATF 3309:

https://www.mobil.com/english-us/passenger-vehicle-lube/pds/glxxmobil-atf-3309

Viscosity cSt on that ATF is 7.1.

AMSOIL's Signature Series Multi-Vehicle ATF is 7.5 cSt, which is right at around the same viscosity.

Sounds to me like AMSOIL's recommendations were 100% correct.
 

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It would appear to me that there are two transmissions; one that bolts up to Mazda's 2.0L 4-cyl, and one that bolts up to FIAT's 1.4L Multiair turbo, which FIAT clearly borrowed from the 500 Abarth.

I suspect the bell housing is different, as is the fluid capacity and fill/drain plug as well. I can cross-reference specifications for both in the service manual as well if need be, but at least on some level, they are two different transmissions. You will most likely not be able to grab a Mazda transmission if you managed to grenade yours and expect it to bolt up. I'm just hypothesizing here.

I decided to do a bit more digging I found a MOPAR catalog where the Mopar fluid part number was listed; 68333587AA (which I pulled from the service manual).

https://www.dealers-mopar.com/resources/pdf/chemical/chemical-catalog.pdf

Right next to it, it says: Long Life Automatic Transmission Fluid DAF 6-SPD AISIN JWS3309. JWS3309 is what's listed in the Mazda service manual. A search for JWS 3309 takes us to Mobil 1 ATF 3309:

https://www.mobil.com/english-us/passenger-vehicle-lube/pds/glxxmobil-atf-3309

Viscosity cSt on that ATF is 7.1.

AMSOIL's Signature Series Multi-Vehicle ATF is 7.5 cSt, which is right at around the same viscosity.

Sounds to me like AMSOIL's recommendations were 100% correct.

XR thank you very much for your availability and attention to detail, I would like to share count some anchors. I downloaded the workshop manuals for the aw6r31 gearbox (Fiat) sj6a-el / 1 (Mazda) and A960 (Toyota), the three gearboxes are identical, sons of the Aisin TB65sn, same ratios, same internal parts (check parts suppliers) and same tolerance, clear that changes the bell of coupling for the different engines. the only thing that changes is that "FIATA" recommends 3309 while Toyota 3324.
It seems that upgrading to 3324 less viscous oil earns the lock-up avoiding slipping

If you think it useful, I will send you the various manuals. Below are some examples and a discussion on the gt86 forum, where they claim they are identical


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18868&highlight=automatic+transmission
 

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Thank you so much @Ayrton. I've edited the AT section of my specs to hopefully clarify somewhat (and to add the details about the housings being different, for those thinking about substituting a Mazda AT for the Fiat AT).

By the way, do have the Fiat and Mazda #s for the C635 MT?
I wrote to Aisin to confirm and clarify, I hope to have an answer ....

About MT I have no news.
 

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XR thank you very much for your availability and attention to detail, I would like to share count some anchors. I downloaded the workshop manuals for the aw6r31 gearbox (Fiat) sj6a-el / 1 (Mazda) and A960 (Toyota), the three gearboxes are identical, sons of the Aisin TB65sn, same ratios, same internal parts (check parts suppliers) and same tolerance, clear that changes the bell of coupling for the different engines. the only thing that changes is that "FIATA" recommends 3309 while Toyota 3324.
It seems that upgrading to 3324 less viscous oil earns the lock-up avoiding slipping

If you think it useful, I will send you the various manuals. Below are some examples and a discussion on the gt86 forum, where they claim they are identical


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18868&highlight=automatic+transmission
There's going to be a warranty factor here to consider. Both Mazda and FCA recommend the higher viscosity 3309 fluid, and I can assure you that is not by mistake. Regardless of what the transmission can use, there are many factors at play that we might not be considering, such as transmission tuning (line pressure, etc) clutch wear, cooling ability, and internal protection. The lower viscosity fluids are not necessarily upgrades.

In my time studying technical topics such as these, I've discovered that every recommendation is made intentionally and with purpose. Given the pressure to run lower viscosity transmission fluids for fuel efficiency, I would proceed with great caution when looking for fluids of thinner viscosity. Should have a failure, I can guarantee you that the warranty will be voided and you will be responsible for the repair bill as a simple oil analysis would expose that you used a viscosity lower than recommended, even if the fluid wasn't the root cause of the failure.
 

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There's going to be a warranty factor here to consider. Both Mazda and FCA recommend the higher viscosity 3309 fluid, and I can assure you that is not by mistake. Regardless of what the transmission can use, there are many factors at play that we might not be considering, such as transmission tuning (line pressure, etc) clutch wear, cooling ability, and internal protection. The lower viscosity fluids are not necessarily upgrades.

In my time studying technical topics such as these, I've discovered that every recommendation is made intentionally and with purpose. Given the pressure to run lower viscosity transmission fluids for fuel efficiency, I would proceed with great caution when looking for fluids of thinner viscosity. Should have a failure, I can guarantee you that the warranty will be voided and you will be responsible for the repair bill as a simple oil analysis would expose that you used a viscosity lower than recommended, even if the fluid wasn't the root cause of the failure.
There is no doubt about this, sticking to the FCA guidelines avoids warranty problems.

Another interesting post of our mx5 cousins ​​warns against the use of ATF multi vehicles or 3309 compatible, there are various negative experiences with Shell S5 and Redline D4, they advise NOT to use fluids "compatible" or "multi vehicle" but only oem or Toyota T-lV

https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=563624
 
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