Fiat 124 Spider Forum banner
1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Dear all,
based on inputs from forum members I have done significant upgrades to my 2017 Lusso engine;

1. EC V4 air induction kit
2. 4C Ignition Coils
3. EC Oill catch can
4. Intercooler Orra Racing (https://orraracing.com/product/kit-intercooler-fiat-124-abarth/)
5. Increased turbo Gt1446 Yellow 1.7 bar maximum peak(Increased turbo Gt1446 for Fiat 500 Abarth)
6. Bosch 0280158124 injectors (390 cc)
7. Turbosmart BoV and WasteGate (15 psi)
8. Sport ignition plugs
9. Tork HiFlow Cat (3)
10. Fox exaust system (Fiat 124 Spider Endschalldämpfer quer Ausgang rechts/links - 2x70 Typ 16 rechts/links)
11. Turboblanket
12. Top fuel here is 100 octane (INA Croatia)

ECU is Marelli if this is important.
The problem now is that the local tuner has an issue with creating the map for this setup, specifically with Injectors. He is asking me "base map" for them to "tune them in" the new configuration. The goal is to reach 230-240 HP.

Does anybody have experience with this and lend a helping hand? (any recommendation or relevant experience is welcomed)

Thank you in advance.

Br,

T.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,371 Posts
Normally, when they ask for a base map, I would assume they want you to hook up a device via your OBDII port, and download your current programming. They would then use that to create your tune, specific to your vehicle and it's configuration. Maybe you need to have another conversation with your tuner to confirm just exactly what he wants from you. If it's a dump (download) of your current programming, then he needs to either provide you with the tool to read and store that information... or read the data himself.

At least that's my experience from obtaining a tune from EC. I purchased the equipment from them to do that and the first step was to read the existing programming and upload it to their site so they could use it to create the modified tuning that i would later download and install on my vehicle, using the same afore-mentioned device.
 

·
Registered
2017 124 Classica
Joined
·
647 Posts
Did you go with injectors recommended by your tuner (EC) or did you select them on your own and then ask them to tune them?

They will need to know the flow characteristics of the injectors to be able to tune for them. The base map they're looking for are the details of your specific injectors. Without that they would merely be guessing at what to put into your tune and could actually result in engine damage because you don't "guess" at injector flow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Did you go with injectors recommended by your tuner (EC) or did you select them on your own and then ask them to tune them?

They will need to know the flow characteristics of the injectors to be able to tune for them. The base map they're looking for are the details of your specific injectors. Without that they would merely be guessing at what to put into your tune and could actually result in engine damage because you don't "guess" at injector flow.

Hi,
I went with injectors that I saw on this forum (New Injector Option) from other members and which are available in Europe. Also, keep in mind that Fiat 124 is quite rare in my country and local tuners do not have almost any experience with them (99% tuned cars here are german cars with Bosch ECU).

Where can I get this flow characteristic of these injectors?

Thank you.

Br,

T.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Normally, when they ask for a base map, I would assume they want you to hook up a device via your OBDII port, and download your current programming. They would then use that to create your tune, specific to your vehicle and it's configuration. Maybe you need to have another conversation with your tuner to confirm just exactly what he wants from you. If it's a dump (download) of your current programming, then he needs to either provide you with the tool to read and store that information... or read the data himself.

At least that's my experience from obtaining a tune from EC. I purchased the equipment from them to do that and the first step was to read the existing programming and upload it to their site so they could use it to create the modified tuning that i would later download and install on my vehicle, using the same afore-mentioned device.
Hi,
I know for EC option and custom tune but the problem is I am in EU and importing this HW (EC Tuning system) will resoult in paying additional VAT and Customs tax so the whole thing will cost me 2.000 Euro which I would avoid if possible. The local tuner is charging around 400 Euros here... Only now there is a problem with these Injectors, all other modifications are not a problem. If you see my list of installed aftermarket parts they are mostly from EU (where I could find alternatives) for the same reason.

Br,

T.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,367 Posts
Hi,
I went with injectors that I saw on this forum (New Injector Option) from other members and which are available in Europe. Also, keep in mind that Fiat 124 is quite rare in my country and local tuners do not have almost any experience with them (99% tuned cars here are german cars with Bosch ECU).

Where can I get this flow characteristic of these injectors?

Thank you.

Br,

T.
Those injectors in that link are 380 cc, by the way. And you really need 550 cc for upgraded turbo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Those injectors in that link are 380 cc, by the way. And you really need 550 cc for upgraded turbo.
I have read that those injectors (0280158124) are ok till 280 HP and folks are using them with an upgraded turbo with 100 octane fuel. You need 550cc only if you are using E85....

Not sure this is correct.

Br,

T.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,367 Posts
550 is the minimum for E85. 380 will work for gasoline but you'll need more than 380 to fully realize a turbo upgrade. Octane has nothing to do with supplying fuel.

330 is stock and will be maxed out with a turbo upgrade. 380 is only 15% more, which will help but not give much more headroom.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
550 is the minimum for E85. 380 will work but you'll need more than 380 to fully realize a turbo upgrade on gasoline. Octane has nothing to do with supplying fuel.
Turbo I have choosen is 1.7 bar maximum peak(Increased turbo Gt1446 for Fiat 500 Abarth) or 240 HP peak. There is Red verson from same guys in Italy that can go til 265 HP. I was told that this Injectors should be sufficient for tis power. Stock Injectors are 270 cc?

And on some places I see this injectors are 390 cc - Abarth 500/595/695 Bosch Uprated Injectors 390cc Set of 4

Now not sure any more in anything.

Br,
T.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Turbo I have choosen is 1.7 bar maximum peak(Increased turbo Gt1446 for Fiat 500 Abarth) or 240 HP peak. There is Red verson from same guys in Italy that can go til 265 HP. I was told that this Injectors should be sufficient for tis power. Stock Injectors are 270 cc?

And on some places I see this injectors are 390 cc - Abarth 500/595/695 Bosch Uprated Injectors 390cc Set of 4

Now not sure any more in anything.

Br,
T.
Font Parallel Paper Paper product Pattern



I need something like this but for this Injectors and engine....
 

·
Registered
2018 124 Spider Abarth Custom
Joined
·
2,584 Posts
When looking for injectors, you must take the fuel rail (pump) pressure into account. That causes lots of confusion when trying to quickly compare and search. As you can see from my data sheet, the 450cc Part Number Siemens injectors test at 440cc at 3Bar but would be 519cc at the 4Bar rail pressure used in the 124. I think the 500s are 3.5Bar fuel pumps so this same injector would be 480cc in it.

There has to be some kind of injector cleaning/refurbish company or shop somewhere in your home country that could test your set and get you the data needed or with some deeper digging, I am sure you could find the OEM basic BOSCH info on them. Try Pista Performance where these were originally posted for sale. The owner is quite knowledgeable in all things FIAT.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
When looking for injectors, you must take the fuel rail (pump) pressure into account. That causes lots of confusion when trying to quickly compare and search. As you can see from my data sheet, the 450cc Part Number Siemens injectors test at 440cc at 3Bar but would be 519cc at the 4Bar rail pressure used in the 124. I think the 500s are 3.5Bar fuel pumps so this same injector would be 480cc in it.

There has to be some kind of injector cleaning/refurbish company or shop somewhere in your home country that could test your set and get you the data needed or with some deeper digging, I am sure you could find the OEM basic BOSCH info on them. Try Pista Performance where these were originally posted for sale. The owner is quite knowledgeable in all things FIAT.
Hi,
unfortunately Pista Performance not working.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
550 is the minimum for E85. 380 will work for gasoline but you'll need more than 380 to fully realize a turbo upgrade. Octane has nothing to do with supplying fuel.

330 is stock and will be maxed out with a turbo upgrade. 380 is only 15% more, which will help but not give much more headroom.
What do you think, will I be able to reach 240 HP with these injectors? (390 cc)
 

·
Registered
2018 124 Spider Abarth Custom
Joined
·
2,584 Posts
What do you think, will I be able to reach 240 HP with these injectors? (390 cc)
It could be done safely with an additional water/meth injection system to prevent knock at the top end but it would be best to get something in the 440cc or greater range to do it on gas alone unless you are going to run 100UL at all times.

I got to 240ish WHP on stock injectors with a 50/50 W/M mix map on the dyno. A plug strap melted during that 3 day dyno fest and I should have taken that as a red flag in hindsight that things were running way too lean then even with the WMI. Then a little hiccup in boost diversion melted 2 pistons during a MAD pull that was awesome up until the point it wasn't.

Rectangle Font Parallel Number Screenshot


You can find this calculator here. Try to stay at 85% duty or less. More is only asking for a hiccup to destroy everything.
 

·
Registered
2018 124 Spider Abarth Custom
Joined
·
2,584 Posts
This is my goal with the ones I purchased combined with the 68PSI fuel pump and the WMI as emergency protection. Maybe a 25-50 shot of NOS once I build another race only engine.

Rectangle Font Parallel Number Screenshot
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Hi,
for using EC Stage 3 tune I have to buy their EURO+DRIVE® TUNING SYSTEM for 820 Euro + shipping + import taxes (cca 1200 Euro) to use it one time and load their Stage 3 map (additional 350 Euro)? And after that I can store it forever... For now it looks like thay are only company who is able to deliver some sort of Stage 3 tune for my car in Croatia...

Does anybody have a better option?

Br,

T.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,367 Posts
MTD in Greece. OSG in Italy. Those are probably your best options.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mtnghost
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top