[pattbone]

I put the Beta tool on my 124. It fit just fine. I promised pictured earlier today, but I can go one better and show a video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHFosdhzNCE


I also called and talked to a Fiat dealer tech (Carlos) and he said they are all the same tool. Now I don't know where this difference is, if there is a difference at all. Model year variation, Euro vs. US, defective tool, or what? At this point I have no idea, but I can tell you what I know with 100% certainty, and that is that the tool I used on my 2012 500 Abarth fits my 2017 124 with zero issues.


Greg

I'm not saying it doesn't fit.. It fits perfectly! That's what causes problem.
All I'm saying is that the timing of the BETA tool is slightly off (and should' be) when installed on a factory timed 124 spider.
It's not Patrick saying that, It's FIAT official technical pubs across Europe which requires to use a different part number timing tool when working on a 124 spider (vice a Giulietta) and this official tool (I verified on my engine) has an almost unnoticeable difference (on the Vn004 piece) compared to the BETA one.

PS One more thing to further eliminate another possibile speculation...
Let's assume my engine came out of the factory off time..
The Beta tool indicates the it's off time.. correctly.
When I installed the FIAT tool I should have seen the exact same thing! Instead I saw that it was dead on..
Hence definitely the tools where timed differently.. Which one was right? I vote for FIAT but we can argue on that.. What I'm certain of is that same engine, same day, no changes, those tools indicated a different thing!

 

[pattbone]

I put the Beta tool on my 124. It fit just fine. I promised pictured earlier today, but I can go one better and show a video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHFosdhzNCE


I also called and talked to a Fiat dealer tech (Carlos) and he said they are all the same tool. Now I don't know where this difference is, if there is a difference at all. Model year variation, Euro vs. US, defective tool, or what? At this point I have no idea, but I can tell you what I know with 100% certainty, and that is that the tool I used on my 2012 500 Abarth fits my 2017 124 with zero issues.


Greg

Hi Folks,
Thanks Greg for your explanation video which is really nice.
Back to us.. This is the tool I bought (as you can see is the same one you used) and this is the manual..
Although my tool (as yours I suppose) was manufactured in 2018 it lists a bunch of cars using the 1,4 multiair but it doesn't list the 124 nor the 500 Abarth...

And then.. I noticed the note:
Kit adjustable for timing system of motors Fiat 1.4 Multiair
And I was thinking.. What if? Let me see..

In the following pictures you can see part number VN004, and looking at it, YES It is adjustable!
I couldn't get it open to see how it looks inside but it seems like it can be adjusted to "FIT 1.4 motors (I add that are not on this list) and that's the 124 spider and 500 Abarth ! Those are the only one I know of not on this list ! (maybe Dart as well?!?)

So botto line the kit isn't useless but (at least on my case) it has to be ADJUSTED correctly in order to match the 124 spider..
Now my question to Greg is... What does your manual say? Because it is possible the the Beta tool sold in the US is factory ADJUSTED for 124 and 500 Abarth whereas the one sold in Europe is factory ADJUSTED for Mito Giulietta and so on...

That could be the answer to all of our questions!

Thoughts?!?

 

[Greg]

Wait a second. Before removing the timing belt there is no physical way you could bolt the crank and cam locking tools into position if the cam tool isn't adjusted into the correct position. It's just occurred to me that you may have missed an important step. The Beta tool is adjustable. That's a good thing. The one in my shop was originally set for a 500 Abarth. That same setting works perfectly on my 124. Of course if yours is adjusted for a car that's different (maybe the MiTo, Punto, or other euro models are different, I have no idea) then yes it would be different, but there isn't any way you could end up in that situation assuming you put the locking tool on before removing the timing belt.



It sounds to me like what you may have done is taken out the factory cam without adjusting the tool. I think you then used a non adjusted tool to install the new cam. That's the only way you could have installed the cam with the timing off. If that's your situation, you need to set the tool correctly. This is a bit of mess at this point. If I am understanding this correctly, and that's what you did, there are two ways to solve it. One, find another car that's having a timing belt change and use it to set your tool. Or, I can set it for you, but you will have to send it to me. I have a perfect 124 engine on my shop floor that's never had it's timing belt off. I can use that to set it, since I'm not taking my 124 apart just to set the tool.



I now see the need to make an entire timing belt changing video and including cam shaft swap info. It's apparent to me that guidance is needed on this issue. I am going to delete the current video because it's obvious to me that putting up partial information has the risk of causing someone to skip a step. Give me a week, but I will get a new video up, which hopefully will help anyone in the future avoid an issue like this.



Greg

 

[pattbone]

Wait a second. Before removing the timing belt there is no physical way you could bolt the crank and cam locking tools into position if the cam tool isn't adjusted into the correct position. It's just occurred to me that you may have missed an important step. The Beta tool is adjustable. That's a good thing. The one in my shop was originally set for a 500 Abarth. That same setting works perfectly on my 124. Of course if yours is adjusted for a car that's different (maybe the MiTo, Punto, or other euro models are different, I have no idea) then yes it would be different, but there isn't any way you could end up in that situation assuming you put the locking tool on before removing the timing belt.



It sounds to me like what you may have done is taken out the factory cam without adjusting the tool. I think you then used a non adjusted tool to install the new cam. That's the only way you could have installed the cam with the timing off. If that's your situation, you need to set the tool correctly. This is a bit of mess at this point. If I am understanding this correctly, and that's what you did, there are two ways to solve it. One, find another car that's having a timing belt change and use it to set your tool. Or, I can set it for you, but you will have to send it to me. I have a perfect 124 engine on my shop floor that's never had it's timing belt off. I can use that to set it, since I'm not taking my 124 apart just to set the tool.



I now see the need to make an entire timing belt changing video and including cam shaft swap info. It's apparent to me that guidance is needed on this issue. I am going to delete the current video because it's obvious to me that putting up partial information has the risk of causing someone to skip a step. Give me a week, but I will get a new video up, which hopefully will help anyone in the future avoid an issue like this.



Greg

No Greg, Sorry but you are off..
You can check the correct timing of the belt WITHOUT removing the belt or loosening the sprocket on the camshaft pulley..
And that's BTW what it seems you did in the video you posted..
First you LOCK the engine crankshaft, remove (if you haven't done so already) the vacuum pump and put the VN004 (upper timing tool, picture I posted above) in.. the inset will match the camshaft grooves only in one position and then you ASSESS...
Two things can happen here:
- The tool is upside down : That means you are 180 degrees off
In that case remove the bottom lock, perform a 180 degrees spin of the camshaft pulley (which equates to 360 degrees of the crankshaft) reinstall the bottom lock and press on.
- The top tool enters the groves in the camshaft but the 3 locking holes (supposed the be aligned with the rest of support bracket where the vacuum pump is attached) don't match uo with it.
That means 2 things.. the engine is slightly off time OR the tool is misadjusted.
In both cases you cannot LOCK the upper timing tool but you can see if the timing is good or not.

AGAIN MY ENGINE IS PERFECTLY TIMED ! I just had to use the FIAT timing tool vice the BETA one.

Last but not least, If the BETA kit (mine and yours) is exactly the same how can you be sure that yours is factory adjusted for 124 and 500 Abarth? Did you check the inside manual like I did?

 

[frankmar]

MINCHIA
very interesting, but confusing!

 

[Greg]

MINCHIA
very interesting, but confusing!

It is confusing in text. Which is why I'll make a video to clear all this up.



Greg

 

[Greg]

No Greg, Sorry but you are off..
You can check the correct timing of the belt WITHOUT removing the belt or loosening the sprocket on the camshaft pulley..
And that's BTW what it seems you did in the video you posted..

Yes, not only can you do that, you have to do it that way.

First you LOCK the engine crankshaft, remove (if you haven't done so already) the vacuum pump and put the VN004 (upper timing tool, picture I posted above) in.. the inset will match the camshaft grooves only in one position and then you ASSESS...
Two things can happen here:
- The tool is upside down : That means you are 180 degrees off
In that case remove the bottom lock, perform a 180 degrees spin of the camshaft pulley (which equates to 360 degrees of the crankshaft) reinstall the bottom lock and press on.
- The top tool enters the groves in the camshaft but the 3 locking holes (supposed the be aligned with the rest of support bracket where the vacuum pump is attached) don't match uo with it.
That means 2 things.. the engine is slightly off time OR the tool is misadjusted.

Exactly, and at this point, you adjust the tool so it's correct for your application. At this point, you physically can't bolt the cam tool to the engine if it's not lined up or adjusted correctly. It's impossible. The only way you can bolt a misaligned tool is if you remove timing belt and move the cam out of time, but if you did that, it wouldn't be the tool manufacturer's fault.

In both cases you cannot LOCK the upper timing tool but you can see if the timing is good or not.

We are in agreement here. If it's not lined up, you cannot LOCK the cam and crank in position. At that point you have to adjust the tool.

AGAIN MY ENGINE IS PERFECTLY TIMED ! I just had to use the FIAT timing tool vice the BETA one.

I am glad you have it timed correctly, and I understand why the Beta tool didn't work for you, which is why I'll make a video explaining how to change a timing belt and or cam. It obviously needs to be done and would have saved you a lot of headaches.

Last but not least, If the BETA kit (mine and yours) is exactly the same how can you be sure that yours is factory adjusted for 124 and 500 Abarth? Did you check the inside manual like I did?

What I said was that the same exact tool works on both cars, the 500 Abarth and the 124, which it does. Yes, I have read the manual. I don't recall ever saying that this or any other tool is factory adjusted for a specific car. If I am at guilty of anything here it's of not making a complete timing belt change tutorial before now.



Greg

 

[doverosx]

I put the Beta tool on my 124. It fit just fine. I promised pictured earlier today, but I can go one better and show a video:

I also called and talked to a Fiat dealer tech (Carlos) and he said they are all the same tool. Now I don't know where this difference is, if there is a difference at all. Model year variation, Euro vs. US, defective tool, or what? At this point I have no idea, but I can tell you what I know with 100% certainty, and that is that the tool I used on my 2012 500 Abarth fits my 2017 124 with zero issues.


Greg

Thank you very much for this info. I’m helping a friend install their cam in a month...

 

[Greg]

The new video will be much better, and will have all the info you need.


Greg

 

[laurencedorneles]

I seem to remember a post from someone here that had the cam. He never did speak about it and seems to have disappeared. I've read a few posts in the 500 forum about the cam upgrade but didn't see any evidence that it was worth the expense and hassle. I look forward to hearing about your results. I hope you do some before/after dyno testing to get some real data.

thats me. the install was a disaster. taking another swing at it end of Nov.

 

[Chainringtattoo]

thats me. the install was a disaster. taking another swing at it end of Nov.

Uh oh. Tell us more if you don't mind. Issue getting it in or getting it timed?

 

[laurencedorneles]

couldnt get it timed. installed, uninstalled, reinstalled original cam, timed correctly, uninstalled original cam, re installed EC cam, still couldnt get it timed, uninstalled and re installed original cam. took close to 6 weeks.

 

[Chainringtattoo]

couldnt get it timed. installed, uninstalled, reinstalled original cam, timed correctly, uninstalled original cam, re installed EC cam, still couldnt get it timed, uninstalled and re installed original cam. took close to 6 weeks.

That's strange. Was there a defect with the cam? I want to say someone else had the same issue but I can't remember who that was.

 

[pattbone]

couldnt get it timed. installed, uninstalled, reinstalled original cam, timed correctly, uninstalled original cam, re installed EC cam, still couldnt get it timed, uninstalled and re installed original cam. took close to 6 weeks.

Which tool kit did you use for timing?

 

[laurencedorneles]

Not sure, mechanic said he had the right tool. There are two different cams that go in this motor and apparently you can only tell which one you have when you take it apart. I have both cams waiting for Carlos to schedule my install hopefully in Jan. Im driving the car from NY to Tampa to have him do it.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk

 

[pattbone]

Not sure, mechanic said he had the right tool. There are two different cams that go in this motor and apparently you can only tell which one you have when you take it apart. I have both cams waiting for Carlos to schedule my install hopefully in Jan. Im driving the car from NY to Tampa to have him do it.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk

Dude, as far as I know there’s only 1 cam compatible with 124 spider made by C&B.. and that’s the one in the pic (see part number).
With that being said, I personally did the cam myself and only 2 things can go wrong (assuming you have the correct timing tool)
1) The crankshaft was locked when the cam was 180 degrees off.. (hard to explain... let’s see.. for each 360 performed by the cam the crankshaft performs a 720 (2 full 360) so the cranckshaft cam be locked correctly even if the cam is 180 degrees off. To AVOID that, lock the OEM camshaft FIRST (it has a hole in it which MUST match the upper tool) and then LOCK the crankshaft .. this way you should be good to go..
If this was the mistake performed by your mechanic the engine would not start (because intake and exhaust valve will open and close exactly at the same time, even if I would not risk my engine trying )
2) C&B camshaft are Known for having too little tread where the camshaft locking bolt is placed to lock the camshaft pulley. If you don’t put and adeguate amount of spacers (I had to put 4) the camshaft pulley will not lock and will move freely going out of time (in this case you will destroy the engine)

Let me know If this helps and/or provide indication of exactly what went wrong (the symptoms you had) when you installed yours on the first place..
By Patrick