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124 Spider Vendor
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Discussion Starter #1
Fiat 124 Dyno Day ONE.



Time to answer a few basic questions including:

1. Baseline Power at the Wheels for MANUAL Trans Fiat124
2. Does change of muffler help?
3. How does Fiat124 compare to Abarth500 with same motor?
4. How does Fiat124 compare to ND Miata on same dyno?




Does muffler change add power? Yes, we hacked up a RoadsterSport Race muffler to make it fit the cutout of the Fiat just to get a test done, this muffler is effectively just a 2.5 inch straight pipe. Muffler adds about 5HP and 11 Ft/lbs Torque.

Fiat 124 BASELINE POWER...145 HP, 169 Ft/lbs torque.
Fiat 124 Change MUFFLER.....150HP, 180 Ft/lbs torque.




Comparison STOCK FIAT with stock muffler to STOCK ND Miata with stock muffler. This really drives home the comparison that the Fiat makes a lot more power under the curve and yet it is slower in all magazine 0-60 tests....figure a mix of factors including a bit of extra weight, gearing, lower redline, etc.


Fiat 124 with stock muffler, Fiat Abarth500 with stock muffler and SPORT button engaged.


Fiat500 Abarth with Sport button ON/OFF. Curious if Abarth124 gets a difference this big, Sport button helps the party get started earlier. From driving the Fiat124Abarth at the Press Intro day my guess is that we see something similar between normal 124 and Abarth124.
 

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Thanks a lot for that ! I wouldn't think the muffler change alone would result in a change of power that much.. thought it was quite insignificant if it wasn't the whole system altogether. Very interesting to see.
 

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Thanks a lot for that ! I wouldn't think the muffler change alone would result in a change of power that much.. thought it was quite insignificant if it wasn't the whole system altogether. Very interesting to see.

Actually, it makes sense, we know the 124 Abarth has a claimed 4hp increase which I think is from the exhaust change, so 5 is quite reasonable. Having seen and heard the stock exhaust I find these results totally believable.

Greg
 

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On the muffler delete plot - what happened below 2200 RPM? Was there a loss?
No. What you see there is a variation in exactly when the driver gave it full power. It's very normal, especially in turbo cars to see run to run variations at low rpm that have a lot to do with when the throttle was applied. Also, load type dynos sometimes take a moment to get settled once full power is applied so that could be a factor as well.

Greg
 

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No. What you see there is a variation in exactly when the driver gave it full power. It's very normal, especially in turbo cars to see run to run variations at low rpm that have a lot to do with when the throttle was applied. Also, load type dynos sometimes take a moment to get settled once full power is applied so that could be a factor as well.

Greg
I see,...thanks Greg. It looks like it would have dropped below looking at the angle that they intersect.
 

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124 Spider Vendor
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Discussion Starter #7
Posted elsewhere yesterday, posted here to make this thread more complete:

DYNO UPDATE!

This is complete Cat-Back Exhaust (stock cat still in there, this is all bolted to exit of stock cat).

That means THREE PIECES:
1. Highflow Crosspipe
2. Highflow Midpipe
3. Highflow Muffler.

Result is new HIGH For Fiat 124, 160 HP at the wheels, 200 FT/LBS Torque pushing you back in the seat! Felt good at the SCCA event last weekend so figured it was time to dyno the setup, and now I see why it felt good, that's some healthy torque. Total area under the curve does NOT yet match our tuned longtube ND but this Fiat is not yet tuned, this is still stock tune, which means this is CARB compliant power!

Lowest Line is Best STOCK Pull
Middle Line is Best Pull with just highflow Muffler Upgrade
Highest Line is Best Pull Full Downpipe, Midpipe, Muffler...Peak HP up 'only' about 15hp but notice total area under the torque curve is massively better, up over 30 Ft/lbs of torque through much of the middle rpm range, peak gains over 50 Ft/lbs down low thanks to faster turbo spool.

 

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Typically when we see greater gains in the low end like that, it's the result of the car's ECU pulling back power on the dyno at higher RPM. Typically we see this associated with boost increases and not exhaust mods, but it looks like that's what's happening here. In other words, your horsepower gains at the high end are probably HIGHER than shown on the dyno.

I have an in depth tech article on this very issue here: https://shopeurocompulsion.net/blogs/technical-articles (scroll down until you find it)

Greg
 

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Wow, that exhaust looks really good, and from what I can see the design and quality are excellent! Good job Brian.

Greg
 

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Thanks Greg, excited to see where we get when we add the Eurocompulsion piggy to this combo!

And we have the Auterra setup to bring out when the piggy gets here.
Brian,

Have you posted those results? If so, where?
 

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I have read at miata.net that Brian couldn't reach the numbers EC claims for their product.
He send it back to EC that they can check it.
After that, there never came an information.
 

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I have read at miata.net that Brian couldn't reach the numbers EC claims for their product.
He send it back to EC that they can check it.
After that, there never came an information.
It's interesting that he no longer has it fitted to his vehicle. The reason I've been so vocal about this is other than the results of people's butt dynos and phone apps, I can't find any verifiable independent data for EC's claims other than EC's own graphs! Even on some of the other forums, the graphs posted by owners have EC watermarks on them. :|

The claims are generous to say the least, and there's a few who've viewed my video who've said they were expecting more. Gearing and test conditions aside, a ~32% increase in power and ~24% increase in torque (plus whatever was gained from the unspecified EC air intake) shouldn't have seen the Abarth ~66% better off in the top end and ~22% over all. We're not talking tenths of a second here, but whole seconds, and a few of them! Considering Greg's also made the outlandish suggestion elsewhere that just by fitting H&R springs to the Fiat that it's "probably going to out corner a 124 Abarth" he's made me even more skeptical. I mean the guys at Turin did more than just swap out the springs for some off-the-self items they had on hand... :rolleyes:

Look, he has a loyal following, and many people are very happy with his products. That's great, and it's fantastic he and his team are putting R&D into these cars. Hopefully he'll have something up for sale one day that I'll buy. In the meantime my real gripe is I've noticed on this forum and some others that there is an air of superiority around the discussion of EC products (and not necessarily by Greg), and that competitors offerings aren't really worth a look in. He and his supporters have on occasion been quite dismissive of some of his competitors products, often time with no verifiable evidence to support their claims. Granted he, and they, are entitled to an opinion, as are we all, but I also feel that needs to be weighed against the fact he is a vendor and also wields considerable influence within the brand.

It also saddens me that some of the members who were questioning these products early on have seemingly disappeared from the forum. I mean, someone needs to be asking the hard questions don't they?! :|
 

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I agree with you.
A forum is a place where private car owners can meet and talk about their experiences and opinions.
Vendors can promote their products. But it should ever be clear, is it an experiences from a private customer or a marketing by a vendor.

Brian (GWR) promotes his products and it is clear for everybody.
Greg (EC) sometime he goes to far in promoting their stuff.

I´m from Austria (next to Germany and Italy) that is the reason why I talk about well known German and Italian tuner. Like G-Tech, PogeaRacing, MazzaEngineering and Scara73.

I have recognized quite early, that Greg has a personal problem with PogeaRacing. After doing some investigation, I maybe know now what happened in the past and in other forums between EC and PogeaRacing.
I´m not interested in bullying between vendors, I´m just interested in their products and if they hold their claims.

Give Greg a chance to make a real performance test. He owns an 124Spider, so where is the problem to do some runs in 3. Gear from 40-80mph? Every tuner should have measurement equipment for that.
VBOX App or a VBOX Performance Box.

And I hope Greg can tell us, what is the actual status of the EDL+ from GWR.
 

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I have read all the post about Brian's car and the EDL piggyback addition. Brian or Greg can correct me and it will not hurt my feelings at all. It appears Brian's testing was done with his full exhaust in place. That exhaust system already produced a little over 200 ft-lbs and 160 hp on the dyno. And those numbers could have been low due to the ECU pulling power up at the top end due to the front wheels not spinning. Those are outstanding gains for an exhaust. Obviously a tremendous amount of restriction in that crossover pipe. Now there is only so much hp/torque to be gained from flow through this motor. You can either increase that flow by pushing harder(more boost like the EDL) or less restriction (GWR full exhaust). Once maxed out there is no more. I believe that the EDL did not produce the advertised gains on Brian's full exhaust car because it was already close to max flow with his exhaust in place. Which will most likely mean that I will not see Brian's advertised exhaust gains if I am already running an EDL piggyback. This is just my take after reading all the threads.
 

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Sorry but, an engine doesn`t produce much more power only by reducing the exhaust counter pressure by a lower restricted exhaust.
You have to increase fuel and boost to reach it.
At miata.net you can find that dyno chart from flyin-miata (the guys with the V8 in the 124spider)


(warning: the absolut figures are not representativ because they haven´t corrected to norm)

A downpipe with 200cpi cat doesn´t increase the power much without changing the map.
Brian (GWR) also still uses the OE catalyzer. (the bottle neck in the system)

I've heard so many lies when it comes to the promise of performance figures that I've become very skeptical. Sorry!
 

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