Good-Win Racing Fiat 124 DYNO DAY!

10813 Views 26 Replies 12 Participants Last post by MADNESS Autoworks, Feb 17, 2017

Good-Win Racing

Discussion Starter · Jul 22, 2016

Fiat 124 Dyno Day ONE.

Time to answer a few basic questions including:

1. Baseline Power at the Wheels for MANUAL Trans Fiat124
2. Does change of muffler help?
3. How does Fiat124 compare to Abarth500 with same motor?
4. How does Fiat124 compare to ND Miata on same dyno?

Does muffler change add power? Yes, we hacked up a RoadsterSport Race muffler to make it fit the cutout of the Fiat just to get a test done, this muffler is effectively just a 2.5 inch straight pipe. Muffler adds about 5HP and 11 Ft/lbs Torque.

Fiat 124 BASELINE POWER...145 HP, 169 Ft/lbs torque.
Fiat 124 Change MUFFLER.....150HP, 180 Ft/lbs torque.

Comparison STOCK FIAT with stock muffler to STOCK ND Miata with stock muffler. This really drives home the comparison that the Fiat makes a lot more power under the curve and yet it is slower in all magazine 0-60 tests....figure a mix of factors including a bit of extra weight, gearing, lower redline, etc.

Fiat 124 with stock muffler, Fiat Abarth500 with stock muffler and SPORT button engaged.

Fiat500 Abarth with Sport button ON/OFF. Curious if Abarth124 gets a difference this big, Sport button helps the party get started earlier. From driving the Fiat124Abarth at the Press Intro day my guess is that we see something similar between normal 124 and Abarth124.

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JFernald

· #21 · Jan 8, 2017

MotoPete said:
It's interesting that he no longer has it fitted to his vehicle. The reason I've been so vocal about this is other than the results of people's butt dynos and phone apps, I can't find any verifiable independent data for EC's claims other than EC's own graphs! Even on some of the other forums, the graphs posted by owners have EC watermarks on them. :|

The claims are generous to say the least, and there's a few who've viewed my video who've said they were expecting more. Gearing and test conditions aside, a ~32% increase in power and ~24% increase in torque (plus whatever was gained from the unspecified EC air intake) shouldn't have seen the Abarth ~66% better off in the top end and ~22% over all. We're not talking tenths of a second here, but whole seconds, and a few of them! Considering Greg's also made the outlandish suggestion elsewhere that just by fitting H&R springs to the Fiat that it's "probably going to out corner a 124 Abarth" he's made me even more skeptical. I mean the guys at Turin did more than just swap out the springs for some off-the-self items they had on hand...

Look, he has a loyal following, and many people are very happy with his products. That's great, and it's fantastic he and his team are putting R&D into these cars. Hopefully he'll have something up for sale one day that I'll buy. In the meantime my real gripe is I've noticed on this forum and some others that there is an air of superiority around the discussion of EC products (and not necessarily by Greg), and that competitors offerings aren't really worth a look in. He and his supporters have on occasion been quite dismissive of some of his competitors products, often time with no verifiable evidence to support their claims. Granted he, and they, are entitled to an opinion, as are we all, but I also feel that needs to be weighed against the fact he is a vendor and also wields considerable influence within the brand.

It also saddens me that some of the members who were questioning these products early on have seemingly disappeared from the forum. I mean, someone needs to be asking the hard questions don't they?! :|

I did not ask the question in order to open the thread up to another of your rants. When your Abarth turns a 6.22 0-60 time, you can tell me that all my horsepower gains are from my "butt dyno." While no one has dismissed the 500 Madness piggyback module, we have pointed out the pros (easier install, lower cost) and cons (doesn't sense engine speed, no published dyno results). When 500 Madness produces any results from their piggyback system, or if the one 124 owner who installed it comes forward with something more than vague descriptions, then you can complain about EC supporters being "dismissive." It is fact that the 500 Madness module cannot adjust boost to different levels over different rpm ranges because it cannot discern the speed of the engine without a cam position sensor.

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RBH58

· #22 · Jan 9, 2017

This will get settled when we see some dyno results showing before/after on the same car on the same day in the same conditions. Anything else is subject to far too many variables.

I've seen seemingly identical cars show surprising variability. I saw one completely stock standard Renaultsport Megane 265 produce better numbers than one that had a Stage 1 chip and a Miltek catback that was supposed to liberate an additional 30kw/50nm (vendors claim). So any comparisons need to eliminate as many variables as possible including different cars (...and sorry...I stand by my assertion that 0-60 comparisons are one of the worst comparative measures possible).

Let's see Greg (and any other vendor) put up the numbers in a controlled environment. Arguments in the mean time are pretty pointless.

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MotoPete

· #23 · Jan 9, 2017

RBH58 said:
Arguments in the mean time are pretty pointless.

I have to agree with you. To shut me up all someone would have had to do was produce independently verifiable evidence from a reliable source. :|

They haven't, and nor do I suspect they ever will. Instead all there is are smoke and mirrors as to why they don't have the time, they have to travel too far, it's not technologically feasible, there's too many variables, it's too expensive, they ate cat food instead of tuna and are deathly ill...

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RBH58

· #24 · Jan 9, 2017 (Edited)

I'm sure they will. It's in the vendor's best interests to do so.

I have to say that I'm pretty happy with our Abarth out of the box and don't feel any great need to tinker much with it. My wife uses it for work so reliability and having an in tact warranty...beyond dispute...are a consideration. If we'd wanted to lose our licences faster we'd have bought an M240.

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MotoPete

· #25 · Jan 9, 2017

RBH58 said:
...so reliability and having an in tact warranty...beyond dispute...are a consideration.

Absolutely, this is the one factor that is making me hold off. I need to make some local enquiries as to how my dealer has dealt with modified Abarth's in the past, and based on their reply perhaps some legal ones as well. As I've said elsewhere I've 6 years warranty and I'm not pissing that away just to prove a point (or gain a paddock full of horses, that whilst nice, the car doesn't really feel like it needs).

Funny you mention the M240. We'd previously looked at replacing the BRZ S with a nicely spec'd (and reasonably rare) one owner M235i manual. Unfortunately for me the missus doesn't like blue... :crying:

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MotoPete

· #26 · Feb 13, 2017

JFernald said:
When your Abarth turns a 6.22 0-60 time...

Meh... I'm only a short and curly away, and that was on a warm summer's day and a botched run.

Give me some cooler weather, some practice runs under my belt, and I'm sure I can best that...

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MADNESS Autoworks

· #27 · Feb 17, 2017

JFernald said:
When 500 Madness produces any results from their piggyback system, or if the one 124 owner who installed it comes forward with something more than vague descriptions, then you can complain about EC supporters being "dismissive." It is fact that the 500 Madness module cannot adjust boost to different levels over different rpm ranges because it cannot discern the speed of the engine without a cam position sensor.

Sorry to butt in a bit, but a little clarification.

We have several types of modules available with several maps. We have a module without a camshaft sensor and one with the sensor. We have individual maps for each unit based on the fuel type you use.

As far as claims go. We will not claim our module will give you over 200HP at the wheels. That will not happen. What we can tell you is that you can expect an approximate boost in power of about 20%. We have plenty of dyno data on several different dynos and they range from 185-204 at the crank (depending on the dyno used and set up).

We are also happy to provide anyone wishing to do a true head to head comparison a unit to test.

Simply be fair, use a proper dyno and always do 3 stock runs first, then drive the vehicle about 50 miles with a newly installed ECM so it fully syncs with the car, do 3 pulls (try to keep the conditions the same as the stock run) and then average out the 3 stock runs and 3 runs with each box you install.

The key is same conditions and average things out. Look at percentages gained or lost.

Results may surprise you. All piggy back units and remaps work and all will give you approximately the same gains. That is what we have said with the 500 ABARTH Groups and we will repeat it here as well.

Sorry for butting in guys. Feel free to delete this post if it is out of place.

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