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It is STUFFED TURBO time!

21K views 109 replies 23 participants last post by  Phillip33 
#1 · (Edited)
It's here! Pictures tomorrow as time permits, install Monday is the plan!

Big thanks to Bryan at NGEN for fast shipment and a gorgeous looking upgraded turbo!

We autocross a lot so we are going with a stock housing stuffed turbo for best response in the tight confines of a typical autocross course. Excited to get it in our Fiat 124 and do some driving!


Box includes:

NGEN 6 fin Turbo
Turbo Install Kit
New Oil Lines
Ported Exhaust Manifold
 
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#3 ·
So it is stuffed, not bigger, right?
 
#5 ·
In the NGEN site Eurocompulsion is listed as brands they work with. Not Madness or Tork.
 
#8 ·
I honestly hope they can get Tork to provide something for it and optimized well for those of you that have chose that route. I do echo the sentiment that it would still take actual car dyno time with the tuner to get it perfect for that particular car to get the max out. It doesn't matter who it is, it cannot be done with an off the shelf version and email in any reasonable time or accuracy. I just went through it in June. 185HP first pull to ~240HP after 15 hrs of dyno/tune time. I also understand that not everyone will get that opportunity personally. BUT... if GoodWin can do what I did with Tork, it can be much closer for everyone else than just a guess at unfamiliar mods would provide.
 
#13 ·
Going to start install today!

Wow, until I held it in my hand today I really had no idea how small the exhaust manifold is, such a little thing! And because it is so small and cast, Bryan at NGEN strongly recommended we go with his ported and polished update. They did a really nice job, it's super clean and smooth in the replacement, and that will certainly help flow.



 
#22 ·
Got flow? Seriously, got FLOW?

I see where Fiat saved the money, the side by side opened my eyes!


The port and polish looks really good. With that much work on the exhaust manifold are you going to port match the turbo? It’s pretty rough and the diameter probably needs to be opened to match the header. Some buffeting and turbulence could be experienced to disturb that smooth flow.

Once you start porting and polishing, you need to go whole hog to get the max flow and performance. Head, manifolds, turbo, throttle body. However that also takes max bucks, which most of us don’t have to spare.

Waiting to see your report on performance gains.

Dan
 
#24 · (Edited)
Turbo is in....and I love it, I really do! Took the wife to lunch, did a hard grab of 2nd gear and backend got all wiggles and both tires struggled with slip, ran to redline several times and found the top end in particular has a lot more pull than before. This is how the car should have shipped. So far I cannot find a downside.

Note this is not the 11 blade, we did not chase max peak hp. Instead, we consulted with Bryan at NGEN about our frequent autocross habits and need for max responsiveness and his suggestion was the stock style stuffed 6 fin turbo instead of the 11 fin. More of the configuration details on the NGEN page at THIS LINK. And the intro drive today tells me that was the right call for us, responsive in the midrange but with more top end than we ever had before. Stock turbo really falls on its face in the upper rpms, not this stuffed unit.

As Bryan noted the ported and polished manifold is carefully and perfectly matched to the turbo housing. And indeed, if you are going all the way to the manifold it would be crazy not to go with the stuffed turbo and get it all done at once, and matching for flow all the way through, here is the other side of that exit from the manifold:

 
#26 ·
Turbo is in....and I love it, I really do! Took the wife to lunch, did a hard grab of 2nd gear and backend got all wiggles and both tires struggled with slip, ran to redline several times and found the top end in particular has a lot more pull than before. This is how the car should have shipped. So far I cannot find a downside.

Note this is not the 11 blade, we did not chase max peak hp. Instead, we consulted with Bryan at NGEN about our frequent autocross habits and need for max responsiveness and his suggestion was the stock style stuffed 6 fin turbo instead of the 11 fin. More of the configuration details on the NGEN page at THIS LINK. And the intro drive today tells me that was the right call for us, responsive in the midrange but with more top end than we ever had before. Stock turbo really falls on its face in the upper rpms, not this stuffed unit.

As Bryan noted the ported and polished manifold is carefully and perfectly matched to the turbo housing. And indeed, if you are going all the way to the manifold it would be crazy not to go with the stuffed turbo and get it all done at once, and matching for flow all the way through, here is the other side of that exit from the manifold:

Do you still have to wait until 3,500 for full boost?
 
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#25 · (Edited)
Another side by side fun pic showing our choice, the stock style stuffed 6 blade. Got a lot more pics from install that we will get posted over the next few days, got a lot of other stuff percolating that needs my attention but will be back with more pics and details as time permits.

 
#29 ·
@Good-Win Racing
Did you get any measurements of the compressor wheel before installing?
My dad and I are installing the EC stuffed turbo this weekend and it looks similar to what you installed.
The inducer on the compressor wheel is 38mm which is a decent upgrade compared to the stock 32mm Compressor wheel.
I haven't compared the turbine wheels yet to know if it is larger than stock.
 
#32 ·
More Install Pics. No issues on install, it went in smooth, all new hardware. No, I didn't take the turbo to pieces and grab a caliper and measure the wheels within, it certainly looks bigger in the side by side pics, that's perhaps a better question for Bryan at NGEN. I don't know which tune will stay in the car, have no dog in the tuner war that some of you live to talk about, and I really could not care less about that subject. We own ALL the complete tune setups for purposes of checking accurate air/fuel with our exhaust setups and whichever ends up making me most happy FROM THE DRIVER'S SEAT will end up in the car long term and that answer will be about driveability, consistent performance, correct A/F ratios, and not peak dyno numbers. Will we get back to the dyno? I don't know, as time permits I would not mind, but undertstand I already work 365 days per year (Yes, I even answer emails Christmas day and New Years, and every other holiday). So, I already work up to 15 hours a day, never take a day off, and again we don't sell stuffed turbos, we don't sell tunes, but I am going to spend a bunch of time and money at the dyno to make those obsessed on the tuner war numbers happy? Ah....no thanks.

I care about the car in competition and max responsiveness and driveability and corner exit torque, and could not care less about the Tuner Wars and peak hp numbers so I am certainly in no rush to feed that monster more info that most of you will just misinterpret anyway, because most of you have proven repeatedly that you don't have a clue about how to read a dyno result when we have posted them in the past. Sorry, but proving dyno numbers for tunes and parts we do not sell is obviously NOT my job, so it just matters about zero to me. Winning events, Top Time of Day for all our project cars at competition days, going fast around the track, that's the results that matter to me. For some racing we intentionally turn down and/or choke the peak HP in favor of making flat torque as broad as possible because the club will weigh the car and dyno it and then do an index based on peak HP by weight, just another example of why our focus is actually useable torque and not peak hp. But in forums, all you guys can talk about is peak HP, which pretty much none of you even understand.

This season we have raced our ND2 Miata and Budget NC Miata project, top results at just about every event against fields beyond 100 competitors at most events. Prior season we got similar top results in the Fiat, and if all goes well with Fiat, next season may be all SSM with the Fiat, that's my focus. Along the way will share my feedback and enthusiasm actually using the stuffed turbo, but devoting my time to running it at the dyno when it is not something we sell is obviously not my job, same with the tunes.







 
#33 ·
I care about the car in competition and max responsiveness and driveability and corner exit torque, and could not care less about the Tuner Wars and peak hp numbers so I am certainly in no rush to feed that monster more info that most of you will just misinterpret anyway, because most of you have proven repeatedly that you don't have a clue about how to read a dyno result when we have posted them in the past. Sorry, but proving dyno numbers for tunes and parts we do not sell is obviously NOT my job, so it just matters about zero to me. Winning events, Top Time of Day for all our project cars at competition days, going fast around the track, that's the results that matter to me. For some racing we intentionally turn down and/or choke the peak HP in favor of making flat torque as broad as possible because the club will weigh the car and dyno it and then do an index based on peak HP by weight, just another example of why our focus is actually useable torque and not peak hp. But in forums, all you guys can talk about is peak HP, which pretty much none of you even understand.
This!!! So much this!!! Thank you!!!
 
#38 ·
I just want to know if you still need to wait for 3,500 to get peak boost. Thanks.
 
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#40 ·
Two days driving on new stuffed turbo, impressions are all good. Someone asked if it spools earlier, not that I notice. Seems to spool no faster than stock turbo but has a stronger top end, doesn't run out of breath like the stock unit does. Looking forward to next weekend track/autocross event with it.

 
#39 ·
It sound like the porting and bigger turbo internals stretches the power curve into the top end. I like that idea, I’m often hitting the rev limiter trying to find that extra umpf, if I’m not paying attention (the old 124 liked the top end revs).
 
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#42 ·
@Good-Win Racing Two real quick question...do you drive this daily? If so, how has the smaller battery (physical) worked out for you? (sorry off topic)

looking good...

mahalo and aloha mike
 
#46 ·
@Good-Win Racing Two real quick question...do you drive this daily? If so, how has the smaller battery (physical) worked out for you? (sorry off topic)

looking good...

mahalo and aloha mike
Yes, daily driver, but then sometimes it sits for 2 weeks while we daily something else. Thus, use can be intense for a period of time and then it gets parked for weeks while we work on other project cars. Therefore, any of our cars using light battery conversions always have a trickle charger applied when parked for more than a day or two. The Fiat uses the battery quite a bit after shut down, to cool the turbo post shutdown. Thus, need decent capacity light battery, not as light as we often use in the Miata applications. Lots more detail in our light battery kit description at THIS LINK.
 
#47 · (Edited)
I tried the small battery for a while but it was a pain in the end for me in the AZ heat. There is so much parasitic draw for all the sleeping functions and OBD reader connected at all times. I could usually make it to work and back home but it needed the tender on it nightly. The car also never charged it above ~12V. A handful of times it was dead when I came out of work in the extreme summer last year. At the track with all the stops and starts, it died here and there. I bought one of those jump battery backs after my first stranding at work.

Travis at Deyeme Racing has another found another light Lithium option that is a little bigger, makes the car charge it to ~14V, and he made a tray insert to retain stock battery restraint. Still saves a considerable amount of weight over lead acid.

It would all just depend on your conditions.
 
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#52 ·
By the way, I went near 24 hours without sleeping Friday into Saturday....so I could squish in an hour of dyno for the Fiat while we had another product car there for work. Yes, over 240 ft/lbs of torque at the wheels in the Fiat 124 feels good. See all the details in our forum at THIS LINK.
 
#55 ·
While I absolutely appreciate the work you put into your business and cars, you really didn't need to push yourself to those extremes. That also being said, I am very impressed and pleased with the results you have so far. Your dyno charts are very close to mine in curve and peak a few months ago when I went to EuroCompulsion HQ in OK for some custom tuning on their dyno. The two major differences are that I have your SportCat and a water/meth injection system for the crazy heat here in the PHX valley. Oh, ok three differences actually... I am not ported and polished to match exhaust to turbo either and Rick did say he wished he knew and had time to do the same to mine when he and his son installed the turbo back in January.

I had the same humps at about the same points initially. Approximately the same turbo spool up RPM. Final HP/TQ numbers are right in line with mine using the EC Phase 3 and no water/meth injection, I was 223HP/240TQ. With the Phase 4/Injection going I am about 20HP/TQ more at the peaks after all the dedicated, custom tuning if the increased curve holds true. Like you have said, once oil temps get above a certain level, the timing pulls back hard at the upper end. Torque hit the 260ish mark at the same point but HP trailed off at the upper end when the engine/oil temps got to be too much and timing pulled back hard. Confirmed it on the 1/4 mile track in July and why I am taking a break until late October here in the desert.

It is another step in the confirmation that the initial "off the shelf" tune definitely increases performance, but if you are looking for every little sliver of power/torque over the whole curve, you have to hit the dyno for your particular car.

I am hoping to shatter every straight line record come this fall. I want to be "forced" to buy a 5 to 8 point roll cage because I run under 13.5s in the 1/4 mile consistently before I even get to building a new block from the ground up and going well beyond 300HP at the crank (I am pushing the limits now somewhere around 280). I am going to get the coilovers installed this winter and then I am going to start running more Autocross events and trying to break every record/barrier there is. Its just a motivational goal. I have to strive for something!
 
#58 ·
Glad you all like the results. It was indeed zero downtime thanks to the CORE program from Bryan at NGEN. Top notch service with Bryan, fast responses, easy choice to go with him for the stuffed turbo and no regrets here. Will be back to the dyno after some logs and back/forth with the Tuner.
 
#60 · (Edited)
Really enjoying the car with the stuffed turbo! Been working back and forth with Tuner on tune refinements and that is coming along nicely, will return to dyno for final numbers in the next few weeks as time permits.

Also getting the car ready for Laguna Seca Raceway event! Will go back up to our Good-Win Racing Premium 12.88 Big Brake Kit because I do most of my passing at Laguna deep in the brake zone for turn 2. Will also add some brake ducts to help keep the brakes at best temp. Also checked local yards for a factory hood and found one in black, and black trunk lid. How very convenient! What are we going to do with those? More on that soon....but it's about better cooling and better aero for fast Laguna.

My buddy Moti has done up some seat lowering mounts, since I am tall for these cars at 6'2, those will help better get my helmet under the Blackbird Roll Bar.

 
#66 ·
Is this mount something you’re replacing the pro car inno mount with ? Or a mount for oem seat ?

the brake duct you guys are trying will they be available soon?

And you say working with “tuner” , is there a new tuner in the mix here ? My stuffed turbo is going in this week
Also your exhaust arrives tomorow :) can’t wait to finally get that on and match @depotdan ?

Post pics of the aero please
 
#61 ·
That manifold looks really nice as does everything I have seen from NGEN. I don't think any T-Jet exhaust manifold will work on the 124 without some serious effort. The reason is that the European Spiders don't use T-Jet, they use the Multiair engine. You would have to get a T-Jet manifold from a 500, which positions the turbo differently and won't easily work in the 124, it's certainly not a bolt on. Plus, the T-Jet manifold isn't better anyway.

NGEN's ported manifold looks like a great choice.

Greg
 
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