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Discussion Starter #1
I've got an email from a dealership trying to make up for a mid-level employee really screwing up a deal. The offer from above is on a base Classica with manual tranny (so sticker at $25990). Sales price less acquisition fee would be $22.4K, with the acquisition fee being consistent with what another dealership has shown in their workups.

Money factor equates to 3% and residual at ~50%. 12K miles/yr included. No money down at delivery beyond first month. Payments would be roughly $330/mo.

That contrasts with the one where the sales guy has spent a good chunk of time with trying to make something happen but the finance people won't give a reasonable worksheet. That location is using money factors that work out to close to 10% (.00416), residuals in the 57% range but with 15K miles per year.. Although they are slightly lower on the adjusted price, their numbers on a 39 month lease WITH $2500 down are still coming in around the same monthly nut. I told them to prepare a no-BS work-up and that was what they sent me...despite the fact that the Fiat website shows a 1.008% APR as available on a lease.

Obviously the second offer is crap, but how does the first one above compare to what some of y'all are seeing?
 

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it has been my observation is unless you want to change cars every few years, a lease is not a good way to go. at the end of the lease, if you were to purchase the vehicle, you would be paying an extra 50%. at the end of the lease @330 a month you will have paid 12.8k, and actually not own the car. if you were to attempt to purchase it after you would be looking at financing a used car and those rates are roughly twice what is offered on new cars.
 

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If you don't drive the car in winter or it will be a summer car. BUY IT.
If you drive it in winter( snow, salt and ect. I am not saying mild snow), LEASE IT. don't buy it after lease is over.

Here in Canada lease or buy it's 0 zero interest. I bought it, cause it is a summer car. But last fall when I was buying it, leasing was zero % int for 5 years, and 1.9 if buying it.

So after calculating it was worth, leasing it and buying after. But Fiat changed their buying to zero% int for 7 years, and I bought it on a 7 year zero % int. Plus $2800. rebate, and another $1300. Accessories. I call this a bargain.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I know the fundamental issues about buy v lease. I think I had mentioned in another thread my reasons for looking to lease in this instance...but to save time in searching, I will simply reiterate that I have real concerns about Fiat closing up shop in the States again. That makes the Spider an orphan...still a cool car, but cool orphans are STILL orphans. The reality is that insurance on these is higher than anything I presently own (which includes an XK8) and would be higher than a new F-Type.

It is all fine and dandy to point to platform sharing for continued parts availability, but the reality is that there is no sheet metal shared with the Miata. Thus I DO have real concerns not just a few years down the road but also for the length of time I typically keep a vehicle (often until the wheels fall off). I'm not one who buys and trades every few years. I also have an issue with having far more vehicles than I can justify...after all, I don't have a NEED for a fifth vehicle. But wanting a new toy is not necessarily a bad thing either...

My post was with the intent to get comment from those who were in leases on their Spider or who were looking at leasing. Forums associated with other makes tend to get active discussions in this arena, so I had hoped to find the same here even taking into account the low sales volume.
 

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Majority buy the spider, I would assume some of those who drive it in snow, might lease it.

Personally, Fiat is not going down the drain, there are still vendors who supply parts for the 1st gen spider.

The reason Fiat closed shop in North America, was due to class action regarding the rust if I recall correctly. But then they changed name to the spider and I think to the X19 and were stiull getting sold in North America.
Assuming your pessimist view of the FIAT(spider), and goes down the drain in North America.

Well there is Chrysler which still could supply the parts under Mopar, which also distributes parts for Fiat in Europe and Australia. and maybe Asia and South America

Interiour, Mx5 are the same parts as the spider.

So my suggestion is go buy it, drive it and enjoy it.
 

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interest rates is very much individual dependent. If they have not run your credit, yet, and they are offering an interest rate, take it with a pinch of salt. So, only you can decide if it's a good deal or not.

Do the math: at 6% you are probably paying an extra $15 a month. 0% will give you around $15 less a month. 3 years assumed. Basically, you have to decide if the total price of the car is what you think is good, remembering that any saving off MSRP has to be multiplied by the residual: a 50% residual (i.e. you are financing the other 50%) means that if they drop the price by $3000 you will only realize $1500 of that saving. Any money down is just offsetting some of the interest you will pay.

You also have to remember that you may have to pay some at the end of the lease for any dings, scratches, other damage that they feel drops the value of the car.

Ideally, if you are leasing, you want a no money down, 0% lease with the biggest money-off you can get. You have a decent amount of money off, and a decent APR with no money down (IOW, I don't think you will do much better). You could try negotiating to see what they'd do for a cash price, and, if its less, see if they'll use that as the lease price (bearing in mind that you only realize the percentage above the residual). might be more work that it's worth - depending on how much you value negotiating.

Having said all this, buying a car is like burning cash in a bonfire; just depends on how quickly you want to burn it. Personally, I will always pay cash, because if life goes Tango Uniform, you don't have to worry about car payments (on an entertainment item, in this case, for most people) along side that which caused your life upset.

At the end of the day, if it's not a deal you are prepared to accept, walk away: that is an option that will always leave you better off.

Oh, one last thing on the monthly payment: if you think you can afford a $330 payment, but cannot afford a $345 payment, then you can't afford a $330 payment.
 

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it has been my observation is unless you want to change cars every few years, a lease is not a good way to go. at the end of the lease, if you were to purchase the vehicle, you would be paying an extra 50%. at the end of the lease @330 a month you will have paid 12.8k, and actually not own the car. if you were to attempt to purchase it after you would be looking at financing a used car and those rates are roughly twice what is offered on new cars.
seriously this is a lot of misinformation.. Most of what happens under a lease depends on the interest rate on the lease.
Im in two leases now and my total interest for each is under $500 over the term. (effectively under 1% interest.. Try to get that rate on a car loan)
That equates to most of money going to residual, and I know the price at the end of the lease. I have lots of options at end of term. Buy, Flip, Walkaway...

The key thing to understand is how much money are you spending on interest, AND what is the residual when you are done.

Anyone who signs a lease that causes an extra 50% to be spent is crazy. and any good lease does not have this problem.

Next thing, is you are off base on interest rates being twice that for used vs. new..
Here are the rates as of this posting from my credit union:
2018-2015 as low as 2.89%
2014-2012 as low as 3.14%
2011-2009 as low as 3.29%

How is that twice as much??
 

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Discussion Starter #8
interest rates is very much individual dependent. If they have not run your credit, yet, and they are offering an interest rate, take it with a pinch of salt. So, only you can decide if it's a good deal or not.
Every manufacturer has their sweet spots on leasing. From the Jag forums, for example, I would walk away from terms like (on the F-type I have considered) even the first example because, compared to what others were getting...they suck. Ditto a few other makes where leases have been discussed. I have no idea what people are seeing with the 124 and precisely because the 124 is NOT a 500, I cannot look at 500 forums and make an informed opinion.

Do the math: at 6% you are probably paying an extra $15 a month. 0% will give you around $15 less a month. 3 years assumed. Basically, you have to decide if the total price of the car is what you think is good, remembering that any saving off MSRP has to be multiplied by the residual: a 50% residual (i.e. you are financing the other 50%) means that if they drop the price by $3000 you will only realize $1500 of that saving. Any money down is just offsetting some of the interest you will pay.

You also have to remember that you may have to pay some at the end of the lease for any dings, scratches, other damage that they feel drops the value of the car.

[snip]

Oh, one last thing on the monthly payment: if you think you can afford a $330 payment, but cannot afford a $345 payment, then you can't afford a $330 payment.
APR matters for reasons not even remotely associated with affordability. If I wanted to buy outright, even on the F-Type, my first offer would be AXP Platinum so I got my points. Money here is not whether it can be 'afforded' or not. And, considering that the second set of numbers is for $2500.00 down that will never be recovered, it is now $2500 in addition to an extra (using your $15/mo difference) ~$500 across the life of the loan. I hate pissing money away for the sake of pissing it away. I have reasons for looking to lease THIS vehicle as opposed to purchasing...the question was whether the terms are decent compared to what others are seeing RIGHT NOW in the 124 lease spectrum. Sadly, it appears that these are too much of a unicorn for anyone to be able to offer an opinion here...

I've got no problems with end-of-lease inspections. I come from a family that has a history of class winners at the national level...my 15-year old beater (X-Type manual) still looks better than some of what I see on showroom floors.
 

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So the first thing I look at is money factor.. this is effectively the APR. If you can get a nice money factor, say 0.002 or 0.0002 the more zeroes on the front the better. lookup money factor on how to convert to interest rate
second. negotiate your discounts off the MSRP. identify if lease cash is available on top of the agreed to price.
three you need to find out the residual % this will dictate the bulk of your payment
four your payment should emerge..
five I don't see the purpose in putting any money down on a lease if possible, especially if your APR is really low. This is especially the case if you flip early. Which I usually do. not sense giving money up front if you wont make it to lease term anyhow...
six explore the rate differences at 10/12/15 miles and 24/36 months.. I dump my cars before the warranty expires, so maybe on the fiat with the 4 year warranty that a 48 month may make sense..

NOTE: I didnt lease my fiat 124. i bought it as I intend to keep for a long time.. Im leasing a RAM truck and a mazda 6. very happy with both of my payments and historical ability to flip.

Here is a great spot to ask your lease questions:
https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/40823/fiat/124-spider/2017-fiat-124-spider-lease-questions
 

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mbelanger, it sounds like you have made up your own mind: you asked questions that you obviously know the answer to - specifically, you know your situation, and we don't.

And you have completely missed the point: spending any money on a car is money down the drain. You will always be better off not buying the car.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
So much for my theory that going to the enthusiast forum for a particular vehicle drawing answers from people that might actually address the question at hand...you know, the one that asks whether the terms offered are good or bad AS THEY RELATE TO THE 124.

The Spider is NOT my area of expertise. I guess I got spoiled by miata.net and jaguarforums.com actually trying to help those looking for actual answers by answering questions instead of going down rabbit trails and trying to conduct a Finance 101 class. Apparently some (sjwhiteley) just blindly take whatever terms are placed on a table. I'm not one of those types of people...I want the best deal I can get, whether on a vehicle or on anything else. And typically, the best place to look to whether something is 'the best deal' is in the forums occupied by enthusiasts.
 

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Mbelanger, I think this pic sums it up.

 

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So much for my theory that going to the enthusiast forum for a particular vehicle drawing answers from people that might actually address the question at hand...you know, the one that asks whether the terms offered are good or bad AS THEY RELATE TO THE 124.

The Spider is NOT my area of expertise. I guess I got spoiled by miata.net and jaguarforums.com actually trying to help those looking for actual answers by answering questions instead of going down rabbit trails and trying to conduct a Finance 101 class. Apparently some (sjwhiteley) just blindly take whatever terms are placed on a table. I'm not one of those types of people...I want the best deal I can get, whether on a vehicle or on anything else. And typically, the best place to look to whether something is 'the best deal' is in the forums occupied by enthusiasts.

Nice introduction to the forum.


You want to know how those terms compare to others. Is one or two random answers on a forum really going to influence your decision?


Either you want the car and negotiate terms that are good for YOU or don't. What someone else pays is irrelevant.


I get the sense the Spider and this forum may not be for you. I've only seen people here be cordial, until now. The miata forum is calling
 

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Discussion Starter #14
You want to know how those terms compare to others. Is one or two random answers on a forum really going to influence your decision?


Either you want the car and negotiate terms that are good for YOU or don't. What someone else pays is irrelevant.
It is not irrelevant...it is the difference between knowing whether an offer is reasonably FOR THIS MAKE/MODEL or not. I don't know enough about the Spider and its history in the first year to know whether a MF that comes in around 3% is reasonable. I know on some makes, it is within the low end while on others (see Jaguar F-Type) where it is an insult and is cause to walk away. But what makes sense on an F-Type is apples to oranges when looking at, oh, something like the 124 in terms of numbers.

But even residuals are something that would be vehicle-dependent. Trying to get a feel for where to peg the 124 three years down the road has been difficult, as I have had one dealer (the one with crappy numbers) put worksheets together that ran everywhere from the cited 57% on up to close to 70%...and there is no way in **** you can tell me that a base Classica would reasonably be expected to fetch close to $18K three years out. I'm not even sure the $13K numbers are accurate estimates as some of the parts stories of woe become more common.

I looked at the ND...hated it from a styling standpoint. Also not happy about the amount of bloat compared to the NA. Hated the dealership even more than the styling, but I could have found a different one. I preferred the looks of the 124 over the ND even though insurance is exponentially more expensive even as a fifth car on a policy. While there is a Spider subforum over there, it doesn't get much traffic since, well, it is a MIATA site, not a SPIDER site. That ostensibly should have made this site the defacto source of information that isn't dealer-tainted.
 

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MBlanger, I do think that your questions are fair and relevant. If you are not getting informed answers here it is probably because not enough people have leased or are happy with the terms they got. Given that it is such a new car with somewhat limited availability, many of us did not have enough of an opportunity for heavy bargaining.
I am surprised that you found the insurance to be expensive. I am paying less than $600/year with Progressive, which is about the same as my other cars.
 

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MBlanger, I do think that your questions are fair and relevant. If you are not getting informed answers here it is probably because not enough people have leased or are happy with the terms they got. Given that it is such a new car with somewhat limited availability, many of us did not have enough of an opportunity for heavy bargaining.
I am surprised that you found the insurance to be expensive. I am paying less than $600/year with Progressive, which is about the same as my other cars.
acking agreement on insurance.. Im at about $650 a year covering both wife/me..
However we all know that insurance has many factors... age, driving record, experience, etc..
I would be surprised to see this car rate higher than others of the same price range.
 
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