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Discussion Starter #1
Given the particular construction of the Multiair module and its delicate maintenance (I have read several discussions on the type of oil and gradation) I decided to try a ProTec nano technological additive, this to protect and prevent the wear of the probes. Somo very skeptical about the use of additives, I never used one, but I was frightened by the fragility and poor quality of the module .... this can be read in the forums dedicated to multiair. So I armed myself with courage and I bought ProTec nano engine, I only run 1000km and I think the tappets are less noisy and the engine is smoother ... as if it had less engine braking, I wonder if it's just a placebo effect ... mah .... someone who has this kind of products?
 

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These "nano tech" additives work, but only for a short period. The technology is not mature enough for it to be useful long-term. Maybe in 5 years. The viscosity will drop back down shortly afterward, which you'll be able to validate with an oil analysis report. I've talked to a lubrication engineer about this topic specifically.

I strongly recommend against additives in engine oil with very few exceptions. My biggest question to anyone looking to use an additive would be, "what issue are you trying to solve and how have you diagnosed this issue?"
 

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Why bother? Manufacturers warranty is valid without the use of additives as long as the oil meets OEM specifications all is good. Drive more worry less....

Paul
 

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Why bother? Manufacturers warranty is valid without the use of additives as long as the oil meets OEM specifications all is good. Drive more worry less....

Paul
There's something to be said about reliability after the warranty is over, and that starts with how you treat the car while it's under warranty.
 

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There's something to be said about reliability after the warranty is over, and that starts with how you treat the car while it's under warranty.
Are you suggesting that following the manufacturers recommendations are not sufficient to maintain reliability beyond the warranty period??

Paul
 

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Are you suggesting that following the manufacturers recommendations are not sufficient to maintain reliability beyond the warranty period??

Paul
I'm suggesting that following the manufacturer's recommendations may not be sufficient, and that is based on my experience and that of many others who used the OEM spec lubricants at the OEM spec intervals where lubrication-related failures existed as a result of the lubricant's quality. I can provide examples if you'd like to hear about them.

Note, I am not promoting any additives. I'm just speaking rhetorically, that manufacturer recommendations may not be enough. Manufacturers are concerned only with their liability, which in our case is 4 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first.
 

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I'm suggesting that following the manufacturer's recommendations may not be sufficient, and that is based on my experience and that of many others who used the OEM spec lubricants at the OEM spec intervals where lubrication-related failures existed as a result of the lubricant's quality. I can provide examples if you'd like to hear about them.

Note, I am not promoting any additives. I'm just speaking rhetorically, that manufacturer recommendations may not be enough. Manufacturers are concerned only with their liability, which in our case is 4 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first.
And then Manufacturers recommendations may be sufficient for our vehicles long term reliability. Especially since the oil change interval is not fixed but rather dependent upon vehicle usage. I'm sure failure can occur just as I'm sure some will abuse their cars without concern for proper maintenance... and I have no doubt that manufacturing tolerance can be a factor in engine failures.

I'm a skeptic when it comes to suggesting that OEM recommendations will impact long term reliability... but hey I've been wrong before. :crying:

Paul
 

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And then Manufacturers recommendations may be sufficient for our vehicles long term reliability. Especially since the oil change interval is not fixed but rather dependent upon vehicle usage. I'm sure failure can occur just as I'm sure some will abuse their cars without concern for proper maintenance... and I have no doubt that manufacturing tolerance can be a factor in engine failures.

I'm a skeptic when it comes to suggesting that OEM recommendations will impact long term reliability... but hey I've been wrong before. :crying:

Paul
In my experience, especially with turbocharged engines and higher compression engines, it's often not the case. I have seen countless examples of vehicles with variable oil change intervals having lubrication related issues, even using the dealer's oil on a strict dealer oil change routine. Like I said, I can give you examples. GM is losing pistons over this issue right now and replacing entire engines in the 1.5 Turbo Malibu, and it's an oil-caused issue.
 

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In my experience, especially with turbocharged engines and higher compression engines, it's often not the case. I have seen countless examples of vehicles with variable oil change intervals having lubrication related issues, even using the dealer's oil on a strict dealer oil change routine. Like I said, I can give you examples. GM is losing pistons over this issue right now and replacing entire engines in the 1.5 Turbo Malibu, and it's an oil-caused issue.
Has GM admitted to this being an oil related problem? Have they changed the oil spec of change interval?

Are you aware of oil related issues common to the Multi-Air motor used in our Spiders?

Paul
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Has GM admitted to this being an oil related problem? Have they changed the oil spec of change interval?

Are you aware of oil related issues common to the Multi-Air motor used in our Spiders?

Paul
My mechanic suggested me to replace the engine oil every 7.000km, this because the Multiair module is very sensitive to the quality of the oil, according to him the cast iron engine block releases contaminated, moreover the Multiair module uses the oil to move the actuators but this should be done by a hydraulic oil and not by a lubricating oil ... The Module especially in the early models had many problems, he replaced several faulty modules and made an idea. The latest Multiair models seem like they work best. If we do a search on Youtube with the word Multiair Problem, you can see the results of a faulty module.
 

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Has GM admitted to this being an oil related problem? Have they changed the oil spec of change interval?

Are you aware of oil related issues common to the Multi-Air motor used in our Spiders?

Paul
Indirectly, by releasing a new specification, dexos1 gen2, specifically to address LSPI. Furthermore, API also released API SN+, also specifically to address LSPI. GM upgraded their "semi synthetic" to a "fully synthetic" dealer oil, so all GM vehicle serviced will have that "fully synthetic" engine oil. I place those all in quotes since "fully synthetic" doesn't mean 100% of the base oils used are actually synthetic. There's a lot of marketing gymnastics in engine oils.

The problem is, GM dexos1 gen2 allows 4 LSPI events to occur during the test, and make no mistake, LSPI events are what cause pistons to crack in direct injected turbocharged engines. Most of the prominent tuners of those platforms strongly recommend AMSOIL because it offers 100% protection against LSPI (zero events in GM's dexos1 gen2 test) across five consecutive tests. This is one example where "just good enough" isn't quite good enough.

If we move over to Honda, the J35 engine with VCM (variable cylinder management), the OEM fill oil, used at the OEM service intervals, causes harsh engagement of the VCM system due to deposits that are formed by the oil around VCM components, which are hydraulically actuated with small passages like a transmission valve body. The end result is engine rebuild. Just another example where the OEM oil, at the OEM intervals causes issues. Some are lucky to have these issues under the warranty period. Most are not.

With the port injected Gen1 Cruze, I have seen FAR too many coked up valvetrains, clogged turbo oil feed lines, and failed turbos on exclusively dealer serviced vehicles.

The GM 5.3 v8 truck engines are seeing lifter and camshaft failures due to deposits formed around lifters by...you guessed it...OEM spec oils.

The list goes on. As a dealer for AMSOIL, I'm on just about every Facebook group for every automotive platform out there. I've seen it all. Excessive cam lobe wear on the Nissan VQ35, gumming of VTEC solenoids and passages, clogged turbo oil feed lines, excessive oil consumption from sticking piston rings, the list goes on. I could spend all day talking about the issues I've seen with vehicles that used OEM spec lubricants at OEM spec intervals.

Still waiting to see what the particular lubrication challenges are on these engines, especially when tuned. So far, fuel dilution and viscosity shear.
 

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My 2012 Fiat 500 has the same multiair 1.4 engine as our spiders. (no turbo) the car has 80,000 + miles on it with no issues at all.

I changed the oil when the car told me to using Pennzoil Platinum oil and Mann filters.

No problems at all. This is a good reliable engine. I wouldn't worry about it.

I traded the 500 in to get my wife an Alfa Romeo Stelvio last Friday. Now I am driving the 500L. The 500L has the same turbo engine as our spiders. 37,000 miles and no problems. Same routine, change the oil when the car says to, Pennzoil Platinum Euro oil, and Mann filters.

I already miss my little 500...
 

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My 2012 Fiat 500 has the same multiair 1.4 engine as our spiders. (no turbo) the car has 80,000 + miles on it with no issues at all.

I changed the oil when the car told me to using Pennzoil Platinum oil and Mann filters.

No problems at all. This is a good reliable engine. I wouldn't worry about it.

I traded the 500 in to get my wife an Alfa Romeo Stelvio last Friday. Now I am driving the 500L. The 500L has the same turbo engine as our spiders. 37,000 miles and no problems. Same routine, change the oil when the car says to, Pennzoil Platinum Euro oil, and Mann filters.

I already miss my little 500...
Me, nah, I'm not worried or even concerned, life way to short to worry about this non-issue. To date I've seen no evidence to indicate a pending catastrophic failure of our engine is lurking ahead and I'll continue to follow the manufactures recommendations. If and when I experience such a failure I'll report it here ASAP! :eek:

Paul
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I am likely to be influenced by some negative events, indeed the new version of Multiair and more reliable, say that I suffer from the syndrome of the absolute, I would like to preserve the characteristics and performance of the engine over time. I would like to return to the original discussion of the ProTec product, I agree with what was said by extremeRevolution, I have never used additives before, but the reviews of these nano-technology products seem really good .... I would like to have some reviews from those who have tried it
 

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I frankly don't trust OEM interval suggestions/recommendations. Changing the oil every 3000'ish miles with a trusted filter and top quality oil that meets or exceeds the OEM spec is in all likelyhood going to give the best level of assurance to the engine's long service life. Especially now that folk like XR are performing routine oil analysis testing on the used oils. These top oils get abused in these modern high stress engines.

Oil debates are never ending, but there is one set of constant truths- cars get more expensive every year, and engines become more advanced with every generation, and we still quibble about what we put in the sump and how often. Pffft!

Don't worry about oil expense or environmental friendliness. Want to save the planet? Sell your car(s) and buy a bicycle. 10 bucks a quart every few thousand miles is but a tiny percentage of the price of a new engine or car. And not a drop of that old oil is wasted, it gets reused for other purposes, including a second life as motor oil.

Steve.
 

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Me, nah, I'm not worried or even concerned, life way to short to worry about this non-issue. To date I've seen no evidence to indicate a pending catastrophic failure of our engine is lurking ahead and I'll continue to follow the manufactures recommendations. If and when I experience such a failure I'll report it here ASAP! :eek:

Paul
Reactive maintenance is, in my opinion, a bad (and expensive) way to approach vehicle ownership. I'm having to convince a family member that they need to change their timing belt on the J35 powered Saturn Vue. They are past due. This is a more clear cut example of where "no issues yet" doesn't cut it. I'd rather prevent the issue than react to it, if I can.

I also didn't suggest or state catastrophic failure for this engine. In fact, I was quite clear on what my observations have been so far. I mentioned a few examples where using OEM spec lubricants at OEM spec intervals compromised how well the engine ran, but didn't state that it was catastrophic. Piston ring deposits and cam lobe wear still allow the engine to operate, but at reduced efficiency, while noisy, with elevated oil consumption.

I'll give you another example, as it pertains to oil's oxidation stability, on the 1.4L Turbo in the Cruze. With cheaper oils that have poor oxidation stability, which are found between 10% and 13% NOACK volatility, we find that deposits are building up around the intake manifold PCV check valve (which is "rubber,") and causing boost leaks. Boost leaks cause a reduction in performance and efficiency, with fuel economy dropping and a slight increase in the turbo boost threshold. Still, the engine runs. With a more oxidation stable oil, this problem can be avoided, but the factory OEM spec oil is not oxidation stable. Furthermore, high volatility oils will also send more vaporized oil through the PCV system, which in return will coat the intercooler, reduce its efficiency, and cause more heat soak. This also has ramifications for catalytic converter life and valve seal in the long-term, issues that are not catastrophic, and ones that few people ever correlate to oil consumption or oil quality. The use of an OEM spec oil in that specific application has proven to be detrimental to the overall health of the engine in the long term.

Unfortunately some of us will be guinnea pigs for these failures until we learn how to prevent them, or we may simply not have big failures except under specific driving conditions.

I am likely to be influenced by some negative events, indeed the new version of Multiair and more reliable, say that I suffer from the syndrome of the absolute, I would like to preserve the characteristics and performance of the engine over time. I would like to return to the original discussion of the ProTec product, I agree with what was said by extremeRevolution, I have never used additives before, but the reviews of these nano-technology products seem really good .... I would like to have some reviews from those who have tried it
I would bet some real money that those reviews are not written by certified tribologists, nor have trending wear patterns been evaluated with oil analysis, nor has ABA testing been performed to validate "improvements," if there truly are some. There is a lot of "snake oil" in the engine oil additive industry, much of which comes with a compromise that isn't disclosed by the manufacturer.

I'll give you one example: Lucas "oil stabilizer." Ignoring the notion that all oil is inherently unstable, I've been told by a lubrication engineer that this is a silicone based tackifier that effectively reduces the efficiency of the engine or gearbox it is used in. In my observations, this causes a loss in fuel efficiency (even if it's a low single digit percentage), and causes differentials to run unusually hot.

I can't find the exact ProTec product with a google search. Perhaps you can post a link? I did find one rather expensive "NanoLube Nano-Oil Anti Friction Nano Technology Additive" on Amazon.com, where one 4 star review noted that they had used the product many times and each time idle RPMs seem to go down 200. The problem is, idle RPM is electronically controlled on modern engines. This is why I take reviews with a grain of salt and consult with my engineering resources.

I frankly don't trust OEM interval suggestions/recommendations. Changing the oil every 3000'ish miles with a trusted filter and top quality oil that meets or exceeds the OEM spec is in all likelyhood going to give the best level of assurance to the engine's long service life. Especially now that folk like XR are performing routine oil analysis testing on the used oils. These top oils get abused in these modern high stress engines.

Oil debates are never ending, but there is one set of constant truths- cars get more expensive every year, and engines become more advanced with every generation, and we still quibble about what we put in the sump and how often. Pffft!

Don't worry about oil expense or environmental friendliness. Want to save the planet? Sell your car(s) and buy a bicycle. 10 bucks a quart every few thousand miles is but a tiny percentage of the price of a new engine or car. And not a drop of that old oil is wasted, it gets reused for other purposes, including a second life as motor oil.

Steve.
Agreed!
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Reactive maintenance is, in my opinion, a bad (and expensive) way to approach vehicle ownership. I'm having to convince a family member that they need to change their timing belt on the J35 powered Saturn Vue. They are past due. This is a more clear cut example of where "no issues yet" doesn't cut it. I'd rather prevent the issue than react to it, if I can.

I also didn't suggest or state catastrophic failure for this engine. In fact, I was quite clear on what my observations have been so far. I mentioned a few examples where using OEM spec lubricants at OEM spec intervals compromised how well the engine ran, but didn't state that it was catastrophic. Piston ring deposits and cam lobe wear still allow the engine to operate, but at reduced efficiency, while noisy, with elevated oil consumption.

I'll give you another example, as it pertains to oil's oxidation stability, on the 1.4L Turbo in the Cruze. With cheaper oils that have poor oxidation stability, which are found between 10% and 13% NOACK volatility, we find that deposits are building up around the intake manifold PCV check valve (which is "rubber,") and causing boost leaks. Boost leaks cause a reduction in performance and efficiency, with fuel economy dropping and a slight increase in the turbo boost threshold. Still, the engine runs. With a more oxidation stable oil, this problem can be avoided, but the factory OEM spec oil is not oxidation stable. Furthermore, high volatility oils will also send more vaporized oil through the PCV system, which in return will coat the intercooler, reduce its efficiency, and cause more heat soak. This also has ramifications for catalytic converter life and valve seal in the long-term, issues that are not catastrophic, and ones that few people ever correlate to oil consumption or oil quality. The use of an OEM spec oil in that specific application has proven to be detrimental to the overall health of the engine in the long term.

Unfortunately some of us will be guinnea pigs for these failures until we learn how to prevent them, or we may simply not have big failures except under specific driving conditions.



I would bet some real money that those reviews are not written by certified tribologists, nor have trending wear patterns been evaluated with oil analysis, nor has ABA testing been performed to validate "improvements," if there truly are some. There is a lot of "snake oil" in the engine oil additive industry, much of which comes with a compromise that isn't disclosed by the manufacturer.

I'll give you one example: Lucas "oil stabilizer." Ignoring the notion that all oil is inherently unstable, I've been told by a lubrication engineer that this is a silicone based tackifier that effectively reduces the efficiency of the engine or gearbox it is used in. In my observations, this causes a loss in fuel efficiency (even if it's a low single digit percentage), and causes differentials to run unusually hot.

I can't find the exact ProTec product with a google search. Perhaps you can post a link? I did find one rather expensive "NanoLube Nano-Oil Anti Friction Nano Technology Additive" on Amazon.com, where one 4 star review noted that they had used the product many times and each time idle RPMs seem to go down 200. The problem is, idle RPM is electronically controlled on modern engines. This is why I take reviews with a grain of salt and consult with my engineering resources.



Agreed!
you're right, the reviews are all about fans, no scientific analysis, they are only opinions of normal users. I put you some of these reviews, there are a lot of them. Unfortunately they are in Italian language. However, even I am skeptical, if I opened this discussion and to have more comparisons and better understand if it is worth using it, the nano technologies are interesting, but who knows if these products are valid ... my little experience and a slight decrease in noise from the Multiair module and I have a feeling of less engine braking, I repeat they are sensations, there is no technical test.
http://www.pro-tec-deutschland.com/en

https://www.amazon.it/Engine-Protect-Protezione-nanotecnologica-motore/product-reviews/B00OECUY2E/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_show_all_btm?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews

https://fiatsedici.forumcommunity.net/?t=55644408

http://www.smaxclubitalia.com/forum-principale/motore/432-protec-nano-engine.html

http://forum.elaborare.com/showthread.php?259477-Bluechem-Nano-Engine-Super-Protection/page2


http://elettrauto-online.blogspot.jp/2010/06/additivi-nel-motore-approfondimento.html

http://www.toyotaclubitalia.it/forum/archive/index.php/t-50280.html
 

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I propose all future oil threads be banned!!!! They lead to nothing constructive but yet the beat goes on..... hehe!


Paul
 

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I’ve never believed in adding anything to the oil, just use the right oil and change it often. A friend of mine shares the same opinion and uses his own experience to justify it. He travels for a living and uses his personal truck for business. His engine recently gave up the ghost, excessive smoking all of a sudden. At the time he had just passed 670,000 miles. He was hoping for a million, but fell short two thirds of the way. Because he had such good luck, he decided to replace the engine with a new crate engine, rebuild the transfer case and transmission. The truck is running as good as new again, no magic snake oil.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
I propose all future oil threads be banned!!!! They lead to nothing constructive but yet the beat goes on..... hehe!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS3O5zg290k

Paul
Even I am skeptical about the additives, as I have repeatedly written several times I have never used them, I decided to open this discussion to look for a comparison on these nano technologies, I do not want to absolutamete defend them! I have no tools and knowledge to understand the benefits that can bring, the comparison is always positive and constructive, I'm sorry to hear the opposite.

I wonder if re-reading this discussion in a few years we would have different opinions ....
 
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