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Discussion Starter #1
Some of you are going to be interested in following this post on miata.net

Nice to see some more dyno numbers and tune options, but I fear this is going to reopen the 2 wheel dyno debate.
 

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“All runs done in 3rd gear.”

5th is 1:1 on the manual.
 

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I may be wrong, but I believe that most pulls are done in 3rd gear. Really though, who cares about the number it spits out, i'm most interested in the difference between untuned and tuned. I had a BRZ before this, and Shiv's open flash tablet is a very popular option. I personally went with a different tuner because I wanted an out of the box E85 solution, but one of my coworkers built his own E85 flex-fuel system, and successfully uses open flash. People with FRS/BRZ used this to do anything from stage 1 style upgrades, to flex-fuel, to supercharger and turbocharger tunes.

I totally agree - nice to see more options. Looking forward to more results. I'm sure there will be more maps available in the future as long as Brian or someone else in the community can get an intercooler upgraded car to Shiv.

For the money, I'm tempted to try this myself. The open flash tablet is really easy to resell since all tunes are included and it works on so many different platforms!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
It would be great if someone goes for it and reports back impressions. Looking forward to learning more.
 

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I will once it is available. It isn't far from my house. I have the same mods as Brian had on his test car too. GWR exhaust and DV+
 

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I fear this is going to reopen the 2 wheel dyno debate.
I don't feel there is any real room for debate here. I have solid video evidence that these cars don't operate correctly on a 2wd dyno. If someone has proof otherwise, let's see it. They have been making these B.S. claims for years, yet haven't posted one shred of evidence to support their statements on this issue.

If the car doesn't know when it's on a 2wd dyno jet, then post of video of the dash during a dyno pull. They don't do that because it will prove my point. The dash will light up like a Christmas tree, proving that the car knows something is amiss.

Greg
 

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I don't feel there is any real room for debate here. I have solid video evidence that these cars don't operate correctly on a 2wd dyno. If someone has proof otherwise, let's see it. They have been making these B.S. claims for years, yet haven't posted one shred of evidence to support their statements on this issue.

If the car doesn't know when it's on a 2wd dyno jet, then post of video of the dash during a dyno pull. They don't do that because it will prove my point. The dash will light up like a Christmas tree, proving that the car knows something is amiss.

Greg
Competition is good. It encourages innovation and promotes fair market pricing. The consumer benefits from having options.

That said, Greg's video has me convinced that linked 4 wheel Dyno is needed to effectively measure output. They took the time to document and share their findings with us and that is very much appreciated. They made a significant investement in the tools to develop, test and refine. For that reason when it comes time to purchase some of these bits, I will give much more credibility to their claims over others, until others can support there claims to the same level of credibility.
 

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There is no debate on the dyno issue, it happens because of the the ABS and/or the ESC systems, and happens on other platforms.
 

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Competition is good. It encourages innovation and promotes fair market pricing. The consumer benefits from having options.

That said, Greg's video has me convinced that linked 4 wheel Dyno is needed to effectively measure output. They took the time to document and share their findings with us and that is very much appreciated. They made a significant investement in the tools to develop, test and refine. For that reason when it comes time to purchase some of these bits, I will give much more credibility to their claims over others, until others can support there claims to the same level of credibility.
Shiv and Open Flash are very highly regarded in the automobile and motorcycle community for his turning products. He to has made investments in equipment, time, and money to support the sport car and motorcycle community. Take a look: http://www.openflashtablet.com/

I'm not an early adapter and will let others be Beta Tester for any product. When products become stable, I'll evaluate each and select the one that best suite my need.... and do it with out prejudice.

Paul.
 

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“All runs done in 3rd gear.”

5th is 1:1 on the manual.
On an inertial dynamometer, the idea is to select a gear that provides a reasonable run duration (~10 sec). Too short and you wont even see full boost. Too long and the intercoolers will heat soak during the pull. The out-dated reason behind running the car in a 1:1 gear is to reduce gear losses which should, all things equal, yield highest power numbers. But that isn't the case with modern turbo engines that, at full load, generate heat faster than they can dissipate it. Also, some dynos are event rated to spin as fast as some higher output European cars will require if running in a 1:1 gear. In such cases, ~200mph roller speeds will also result in excessive frictional losses at the roller/tire interface.
 

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Greg;317554They have been making these B.S. claims for years said:
When you say "they" are you referring to me? If so, what claims have I been making for years? I rarely even post on Fiat forums.

Also, it's very easy to quantify the effects of running in 2WD vs 4WD mode. If you are able to log throttle angle (%), injector on-time (ms), ignition advance (deg BTDC) and manifold pressure (bar), you have all you need to determine if the engine runs differently when the front wheels aren't spinning. That is the relevant data that I encourage you to look at. Not flashing dash messages which pertains to just about every modern car with DBW and traction/stability control.
 

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Making popcorn as I type!!!
 

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A word to the wise .....

Lets keep any such debate civil, based on factual discussions - rather than going into attack mode (leave that to our respective pollies)

Let each make their case - and let the knowledgeable consumer make their best informed choice

Been on other forums that have gone to shite with such discussions - I would really not want this happen here

Peace
 

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Hi Shiv,

it's very easy to quantify the effects of running in 2WD vs 4WD mode.
Great! If it's so easy you should be able to post a video proving what you are saying. I am anxious to see it.

If you are able to log throttle angle (%), injector on-time (ms), ignition advance (deg BTDC) and manifold pressure (bar), you have all you need to determine if the engine runs differently when the front wheels aren't spinning.
That's fantastic Shiv. That's just the data that you could include in your video to prove your point. You can show all of those parameters in a video as the car does a full power pull on the road, and then on a dyno. It would be nice to include multi air data too since the power in this engine can also be reduced by closing up the intake valves.

That is the relevant data that I encourage you to look at.
I think it's pretty obvious that when making tunes we look at that data. It would be quite difficult to tune without looking at it.

Not flashing dash messages which pertains to just about every modern car with DBW and traction/stability control.
I am not talking about other cars, I am talking about this car and or this engine with the Magneti Marelli ECU. If you can post a video, as I have, of this car during a dyno pull without dash lights on, that would be great, but I don't think you can. However if you can and you show factors mentioned earlier (boost, timing etc.) during a run with the lights on and without, you will see the difference.

I await your video proof of your statements,

Greg
 

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Hi Shiv,



Great! If it's so easy you should be able to post a video proving what you are saying. I am anxious to see it.



That's fantastic Shiv. That's just the data that you could include in your video to prove your point. You can show all of those parameters in a video as the car does a full power pull on the road, and then on a dyno. It would be nice to include multi air data too since the power in this engine can also be reduced by closing up the intake valves.



I think it's pretty obvious that when making tunes we look at that data. It would be quite difficult to tune without looking at it.



I am not talking about other cars, I am talking about this car and or this engine with the Magneti Marelli ECU. If you can post a video, as I have, of this car during a dyno pull without dash lights on, that would be great, but I don't think you can. However if you can and you show factors mentioned earlier (boost, timing etc.) during a run with the lights on and without, you will see the difference.

I await your video proof of your statements,

Greg
Greg,
I'll be happy to gather more data for you. I'll also post an instructional on how to successfully dyno the 124 on a 2wd Dynojet. Perhaps it will shed some light on some of the things you are claiming. I'll try to get to it this upcoming week before we return the car back to GWR.

Also, you didn't respond to my question asking what other "B.S. claims" you say that I have made over the years. Could you please elaborate?
 

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Greg,
I'll be happy to gather more data for you.
Shiv, please don't be condescending. I am not asking you to gather data for me. Anyone with a 5 dollar app can gather data. I am asking you to prove what you are saying with a video. You have said that I am wrong (well "wrong" is a kind way of putting it). I am asking you for evidence of your assertion. If I was posting such assertions about you on a forum you don't frequent I would darn well have the evidence before I made such claims.

I'll also post an instructional on how to successfully dyno the 124 on a 2wd Dynojet.
Great, I hope it's not another "pull the fuse" claim. That was put to bed years ago. Of course if you have to use some sort of trickery to get the car to behave then that proves my point anyway.

Perhaps it will shed some light on some of the things you are claiming. I'll try to get to it this upcoming week before we return the car back to GWR.
I can't wait, and whatever it is, I'll try it immediately and make a video of it in both rear drive mode and with all 4 wheels linked up.

Also, you didn't respond to my question asking what other "B.S. claims" you say that I have made over the years. Could you please elaborate?
Shiv, that might be the most out of context quote I have ever seen from a vendor. I used the phrase you quoted (B.S. claims). The word claims is plural, and the sentence began with the word "They". In your case right now, I am only addressing one specific thing and I think you know darn well what it is since you wrote it YESTERDAY, but just in case I will quote your entire paragraph here (emphasis in the following paragraph is mine).

"Using a software based road dyno and claiming that these ECUs don't allow full power when tested on a 2wd chassis dyno are HIGHLY suspect, in my opinion. If seen similar claims made in high end markets (such as Ferrari) where tuners claim chassis dynos don't provide the airflow needed to satisfy the ECU and that they can only be tested in a wind tunnel! They go so far as to claim that the catalysts will overheat without 100+mph air speed and potentially burn the car to the ground. Have spending nearly 100hrs testing our 458 on the dyno, it's clear that these claims are bogus. They are just methods used by tuners to keep customers from verifying their unrealistic hp claims on independent dynos. "

I have a video proving that these cars, when tuned do pull power on a 2wd dyno. Your claim that you will "post an instructional on how to successfully dyno the 124 on a 2wd Dynojet." is a bit strange to me. The fact that there are instructions involved sort of implies that you know these cars don't work properly on a 2wd dyno.

Shiv, my challenge to you stands, post a video proving what you say, not screen shots, not pictures of your Ferrari but a video showing the car behaving normally on a 2wd dyno.

Greg

P.S. I agree with you about the overheating catalyst.
 

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Greg,
I fully expect us to have different opinions on dyno testing methodology. And instead of getting into a debate with you here and now, I'll just collect some data you and post it up for everyone to evaluate. But that is not the reason i joined this forum. I joined because it was brought to my attention that you said:

"They have been making these B.S. claims for years, yet haven't posted one shred of evidence to support their statements on this issue."

So far, it only seems like you disagree with my dyno testing procedure. But that has only been posted for a few days. What other claims of mine, over the years, have you had issues with? Could you please be specific?
 

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Greg,
I fully expect us to have different opinions on dyno testing methodology. And instead of getting into a debate with you here and now, I'll just collect some data you and post it up for everyone to evaluate.
I don't see this as a difference of opinions, I see it as a black and white issue of right and wrong. Either a tuned 124 pulls power on a 2wd dyno or it doesn't. I say it does and you say it doesn't. One of us is wrong. I have posted my evidence, and I am excited to see yours.

But that is not the reason i joined this forum. I joined because it was brought to my attention that you said:

"They have been making these B.S. claims for years, yet haven't posted one shred of evidence to support their statements on this issue."
My statement is true. Please don't play the innocent victim here. You shot first. In case you don't remember, I'll help.

On the Miata forum yesterday a member there posted this: "The EC Stage 2 tune does have a big intercooler and intake on theirs, but a stock exhaust. Shiv's tune has no intercooler or intake, but a 2.5" exhaust from the downpipe back. This is very frustrating. I don't know who to believe. Greg shows the Fiat to throw all sorts of codes and no power increase on a 2wd dyno, while Shiv shows results pretty identical to the EC Stage 1 tune... but on a 2wd dyno."

To which your response was:




So far, it only seems like you disagree with my dyno testing procedure. But that has only been posted for a few days. What other claims of mine, over the years, have you had issues with? Could you please be specific?
Nope, it's not your testing procedure I disagree with. I don't even know what your procedure is. I do have a disagreement though, it's just one thing, but it's a BIG thing. Implying that the 2wd dyno issue is something that someone made up to trick customers is pretty severe. Furthermore, you did it on a forum where I was very unlikely to catch it and be able to defend myself since I don't post or frequent any Miata forums. The only reason I saw this is because member "Roadscum" posted the link on this forum. To make such a claim about a competing vendor without posting any proof or evidence is something I have an issue with. I would never do that and if one of my employees did I would fire them.

Greg

P.S. I am waiting for your proof. I fully understand it will take a day or two, perhaps a little more to post such a video.
 

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