Fiat 124 Spider Forum banner
21 - 38 of 38 Posts

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Because it takes a little longer for my parts to arrive i build everything together, i changed out 3 of the 4 sparkplugs, from the 4 before i took 1 that looked the best to me and build everything together.

After some idle-running i got a engine-oil-pressure warning, took me 1 hour to find that one of the seal-clips on the oil-pressure-sensor wasnt correctly fitted on by me.

So i fixed that, now the engine, after warming up to 95°C, i revved it around the range, to see if anything is weird.

And for 1 seconds (quickly turned it off) after i revved it to 6000rpm the engine-warning-light came on.

Error code 3 times for P1300 pending: Missfiring detected. The suggestion: The fuel-supply is too low.

I still have that rattling-noise that sometimes comes on when revving up, sometimes it stays idle, sometimes its not to be heard. So the first thing i will do is order 4 new ignition-coils from Bosch
(0 221 504 024) and see if that is the problem before i really go down the rabbit-hole. I will let the head-gasket and multiair-gasket stay inside a sealed box for the moment and change them out once i confirm that even replacing the coils is not gonna work.


Now this still could be a problem with oil-pressure because the multiair cant do without it (and doesnt actuate the intake/exhaust-valves) and i already can confirm that my sealings are holding up really well. So here goes nothing.

I post again once they arrive, will take a while.
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
So, i endoscoped my 4 zylinder. Good things first: the zylinders dont look too bad. There were nearly none to some residue of burned up oil inside, nothing that, with some additives, can be cleaned out.

The more troublesome thing is that the rubber seals are broken at the bottom. They are not really responsible for sealing up, but its still smth i have to fix. So will see how i do that.

Otherwise im still waiting for my ignition-coils, will see if that fixes it. Otherwise i got all my gaskets and then it comes down to removing the head and see into it. Will keep ya informed.
Astronomical object Sky Circle Metal Event
Automotive tire Wood Cloud Automotive lighting Sky
Water Automotive tire Automotive lighting Road surface Asphalt
Water Liquid Fluid Automotive tire Wood
Eye Automotive tire Road surface Asphalt Art
Automotive tire Automotive lighting Wood Grey Rim
Road surface Automotive tire Circle Metal Pattern
Water Liquid Road surface Asphalt Cookware and bakeware
Automotive tire Water Hood Automotive exterior Rim
Water Automotive tire Wood Grey Automotive lighting
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #23 ·
And here the sparkplug-chambers
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
So, i changed out the sparkplugs and coils, no difference. Instead i get a random oilpressure-warning at startup, which disappears after 1-2 minutes.

The Motor has some problems running, especially if you step on the gas and when lightly pressing the pedal. Inbetween it works as it should be.

The noise, just from hearing, gets louder. So, my thoughts:

-A) My Fuelpump is damaged/defect, it cant properly deliver the fuel to the chambers and the air/fuel-mixture is not properly adjusted, which results in bad motor-behavioure.
.B) Because of the ukrain-war the gasstations use unregular fuel (more ethanol) and the fuelmixture is just down the drain. Will try if ROZ 98/100 is changing smth.
-C) The oil im using is the wrong one. Which should be the easiest to change out.
-D) My Turbo is damaged on the exhaust-side. Already checked for wobble on the intake-side, but who knows. So will build it out and post photos here.
-E) My Multiair-brick is damaged, which is a little hard to figure out. If i dont find anything wrong, as i already posted it here, i will build out the motor and check it properly from front to back. The problem is that the motor is at an 90° offset, so the back-screws are hard to reach.

If i dont find anything, the last option:

-F) I bring it to another mechanic to get it checked (Official Abarth-mechanic) and cross it out on my "to-do-list for my life that you have to test out just so you can tell something to your children".

Will keep posting.
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
So, i tore it down.

First of all: i did not take the motor out. Maybe because a certain someone in my family has lost my balancer for the motor-crane (somewhere on some building site, dont ask me where, he doesnt know it).

So, after building out the multiair (which is a f***ing piece of s**t to do on this car, sorry for the language) i have some clarity:

1: Someone already had worked on this car before i got it. Mainly because there is a missing screw for the multiair-bracket that holds it in place (the middle one on the crankshaft-side) and the screws for the cover were not properly tightened. Which was apparent because the last 2 on the back where you can only get to if you sell your soul to the devil were tight af.
Motor vehicle Auto part Automotive super charger part Nut Machine
Automotive fuel system Motor vehicle Automotive tire Light Automotive design

2: The sealant of the multiair was damaged/is getting withered, so could be that i had pressure-losses between the compartments of Cylinder 1 and 2.
Organism Snout Carmine Metal Pattern
Black Organism Asphalt Line Road surface

3: There is a missing (checkvalve? Control-valve? One-way-valve?) on the left side of the multiair. The other 3 are still present. Im gonna search the whole motorassembly for it, but pretty sure somewhere over the rainbow i will find it. If someone can tell me if thats bad (like really bad) then i would appreciate it if someone can clarify for what those are.
Rim Automotive exterior Nickel Automotive wheel system Metal
Automotive tire Wood Rim Machine tool Nickel

4: As far as i can see it the valves, springs and overall assembly seems to be in pretty good shape. Someone already put some gasket on the corners (which i will renew) and the crankshaft is tight, no wobble or anything. Will spin it later some time and then hear if something is grind/out of place.
Light Motor vehicle Automotive design Automotive exterior Auto part
Light Motor vehicle Office equipment Auto part Office supplies

5: The Multiair is not working properly. If you can see it on the photos the valves are stuck on the bottom, normaly there should be 3-4 mm play and you can press it in and it comes up again, but those are stuck on the ground. One Valve (The one farthest left) has those 3-4mm play and will come up, the others not. So....pretty sure i have to disassemble the multiair and cleaned it out properly. Either the springs inside are stuck from gunk or smth else is amiss. I checked it via youtube-video from Paul Day.
Automotive tire Automotive lighting Bumper Bicycle part Automotive exterior
Household hardware Camera accessory Material property Nickel Gas


So, still a lot of work to do. As always, if you see smth else and might be so friendly to point it out i will gladly take the advice.

Will keep posting.

With regards.
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
And here the rest of the photos. For better viewing of the valve-actuators.
Automotive tire Hood Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Helmet
Automotive lighting Audio equipment Gas Automotive tire Machine
Automotive tire Gas Auto part Automotive wheel system Metal
Motor vehicle Automotive tire Automotive design Rim Automotive wheel system
Automotive design Motor vehicle Gas Rim Auto part
Font Gas Auto part Automotive exterior Metal
 

·
Registered
2020 Abarth 124 Brillante White Velleno package with Monza exhaust.
Joined
·
1,295 Posts
Have you removed the camshaft? If not make sure you check the clearance before reassembly. Some on the forum have had camshaft issues and it would be good to know what they are set to from the factory. Also do you have any pictures of the exhaust springs and buckets lifters? I want to become well acquainted with the internals of this engine before working on mine. Danke!
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
I have not removed the camshaft because A) its tightened on the motorblock via mountings, so i dont have to remove it and B) there is, as far as i see it, no defect on the camshaft. I have the timing-tool, so i could remove it but as i see it there is no point to it. If i rotate the motor a little and hear grinding/rattling somewhere i will have to remove it, yeah.

With "exhaust-springs" you just mean a photo of the other side? I can provide that, the buckets-lifters are on the bottom-side of the crankshaft, so will do a photo diagonally and post it here. If you mean on the multiair, there is a good video from Tork Motorsport here where he goes through the installation of his improved multiair-springs. He didnt check clearance, so i think it doesnt matter as much.

I have no information on the torque thats required, so.....sorry guys, but tight is tight :) . So i took 10Nm (88.51 in) as a measure, seems tight enough for the topcover of the multiair.

The silicone is high-temperature-resistent and i put it on, took a flat plasticlever (normally for removing car-interior) and scraped it just above the small sunk-in-line for the gasket. Hopefully its gonna seal it off once i build everything together, dont know how am i supposed to check for leakage on it.

Will see tomorrow. I have some more pictures below, where you can see how the multiair looks after i put it together.

@mtnghost: if you wanna work on your car, just a piece of advice: If you work on it, and you have the option, take out the motor before doing work on it.

I have done it without and it was hard af:

It was frustrating to get the cover off, there are multiple things (Turbo, Brackets for the main-wiring, multiple rubber hoses, single piece ear pliers, ect.) that will prevent you from just taking off the head. If you want, if i build it together, i make photos for you and post them here where i show you what you have to take note off. Some things didnt went as planned ( :) ) and some things went as expected ( :) ).

Once i have the head on, i go over to the turbo, and maaaaaaan, who da fu g in FCA thought it would be a really fooling/youknowwhatimean idea to put the screws for the Turbo FACING TO THE BOTTOM? I mean, seriously, who thought that if you put it exactly in a direction where the whole motor-assembly is in the way and you have to take out half of the whole car that thats a good idea? Seriously, FCA, get your schaiße together, its not that hard to make good cars with ease of repair for your mechanics. You do noone a good thing being a prick by making it difficult for everyone.

And i will post smth else here where i thing thats separate.

Anyway, i will continue working tomorrow, expect some more pictures (sorry for the admin for wasting preciouse space on your server).

Have a nice evening/morning.
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #29 ·
And here some pictures (forgot to put them in).

Just a piece of advice for EVERYONE: if you work on your car, and you just moved into your new house, better put some tables around where you can put your tools and so on on it, otherwise it looks like on the first photo :D . I will wrap my whole car in blue/black, so small scratches doesnt really matter, still having some place to put your tools in is important.
Product Automotive lighting Font Automotive exterior Bumper
Motor vehicle Automotive tire Rim Bumper Automotive exterior
Light Fluid Rim Automotive wheel system Gas
Hood Light Blue Motor vehicle Vehicle
Rim Gas Auto part Automotive wheel system Machine
Car Motor vehicle Automotive fuel system Vehicle Automotive design
Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Vehicle registration plate Automotive design Bumper
Automotive tire Bumper Automotive exterior Automotive wheel system Asphalt
Saving Coin Money handling Nickel Money
Automotive tire Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Bumper Bicycle part
 
  • Like
Reactions: mtnghost

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 ·
And now for my lovely people of FCA, if you read this (no offense, i love you):

Im not an engineer, i have no right to criticise or even argue about some things with you. I understand that, i know everything has a reason, even if its only for money. Whatever.

But, and hear me out, what if, JUST WHAT IF, you guys take nearly 1000€ for a new multiair-brick, which btw. doesnt have that many moving parts, doesnt have wild electronics or a huge mass of copper, gold or smth in it, which would just need new actuators or a good cleaning to work properly again, and then f*** it up by making dumb design-decisions?

Why does the actuator for the intake- and exhaust-valve have a spring on its head which does not SECURE PROPERLY? SERIOUSLY? Do you guys even know what that spring is doing 500 times a minute? because thats the amount of actuation that thing is doing just so that damn motor is running. And what do you do? You take the most flimsy, most feeble spring i have ever seen in existance in this kind of application, strap it in between the headpin and the actuator-pin with maybe 2mm of "fastening" on each side and think that that springs never gonna, oh i dont know, SPRING TO THE SIDES AND GETS STUCK IN BETWEEN?

That Spring, even while just building together, was pushed to the side 4 times and i was left again with a headpin that didnt properly work, and thats not because im dumb or smth, its just because nothing is holding the head-pin and the actuator-pin together. And you have to put a little pressure on the headpin to put it into the actuator, so once it goes in, the actuator-pin is being pushed out and the spring says bye-bye-baby. You could have used a c-clip or actually mm-accurate cnc-machining to make it so the spring is tight and secure in there, just 1 side would be enough to prevent that spring from failing in the even mundanes type of work, but no, apparently thats too much work or you actually would need a better manufacturing process. Seriously?

But maybe its because you sell more of these "failing" multiairs so its good. Thanks FCA, you doing gods work, and america thanks you for it (says a german dude).

Haaaaaah, whatever, its build together, will fail again, pretty sure, but if i have to build it out again i will actually modify it in a way that it never fails again. Its not that fucking hard. Just measure out the head-pin and actuator-pin, make a 3d-model, measure out the spring and then maybe with 3/100 of excess take that plan to a machining-shop and get 8 head- and actuator-pins that actually HOLD the spring in place and have no room for side-play on it. Or take a bigger spring that cant get to the side, even if it wants to(which i prefer). I t s n o t t h a t d i f f i c u l t.

Sorry, had to take the aggression away, its good now.
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #31 ·
So, i have put together the motor, of course 1 screw is left, 2 i have not put in because they are a pain to get out and if i have a problem, like not sealing up properly or my problem with the motor is not gone i might have to disassemble it again. So i left them out. They will be stored inside the car for future improvements to those mounting-situations (will do some custom brackets for them).

I will post in another forumthread a "manual" so to speak of how i got it out without building out the motor, might help some people out. Now keep in mind its from a "hobby"-standpoint, im not a car-mechanic or have to quality to call myself that.

Just a note: as i expected, the motor does not run, cranking yes, you feel the air from the oilstick and cap, but no start. So i will try to fill in the 250ml from the service-port. Otherwise i take off the headcover again and inject oil via the air-release-openings in the cover before building it in again. Other problem could be, as i also expected, that i didnt seal the headplate of the multiair properly. Lets see what it is. ^^.

Anyway, im done for today, so i will post tomorrow how it went (And maybe i hust modify the multiair a little so i can fill it with oil even if it stays weeks/months without cranking it. Will see).
 

·
Registered
2020 Abarth 124 Brillante White Velleno package with Monza exhaust.
Joined
·
1,295 Posts
you already put the whole thing together? I was going to get you the torque spec for the multiair and also I don’t know if you read any of my previous posts on camshaft failure but you are supposed to replace the dowel for the multiair unit. If not it could be slightly off and cause issues with oil passages not being lined up. Since it’s back together I just wish you best of luck and thank you for all the photos and advice.
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Well, the torque-specs was already taken from the video of Tork Motorsport, i just wasnt sure for the cover-plate of the multiair but 10Nm seemed way enough.

Im not sure what you mean with "dowel", you mean the alignment-pins or you mean the gasket for it? Maybe the multiair-filter? Because both of those i already replaced.

As i said, i will put together a manual for building out/building in the multi-air without taking out the motor, preferably with as many informations as i can provide. Will take some time with all photos, and possibly with troubleshooting and help for getting the multiair running once its up to start up. As far as i recall, fiat tells you to crank it until it springs on, never over 20 secs of cranking with 1-2 Minutes of letting the starter cool down. Have done it nearly 15 times, now the battery is below 12V (11.9V)which i have to charge tomorrow. Maybe i can find a trick which works flawlessly. Might even build a 3d-model just for me to troubleshoot how i can make that thing reliable. Because as far as i can see it there are only 3 failure-points and none of them are non-fixable.

Just an idea i had:

The multiair has different valves along the oil-passage that work in one-direction, preventing trapped gases from going out. Now if you try to pressure oil into the service-hole it actually can push some of the air still in the system into the multiair-head and prevent it from working. If you have oil-pressure in the system it will automatically over time push them out from the "ventilation" hole on the cover-plate but takes time and the pressure, because of decrease in volume, will go down. Normally it should be "crank it 3-4 times, wait overnight, then crank it again, wait overnight, ect.". Would be funny if that works better than completly devastating your starter.

So Instead of pushing in oil from the service-port, why not suck it via underpressure out? In theory the service-port is one-directional, not sure if from the outside to the inside or switched, but if its from the inside to the outside (preventing overpressure inside the system), by "sucking" the oil through it, you could use the normal oil-passageway from the oil-pan to the multiair to get trapped gasses along the channel to the head-plate while filling it up. Also the multiair has 4 chambers which have to be filled with oil, while the sensor for the oil is on the cylinder furthest back. As far as i have seen it unless the sensor sees oil-pressure it prevents the system from ignition to "save" the mechanical levers and lifters from running dry, which, from my thoughts, is a really good safety-mechanism. BUT, it only measures it farthest from the service-port. So unless you can compress the air still existing in front of that sensor it still will not crank, for it takes time for the air to travel to an exit and oil to fill the space.

Either, hear me out, you could theoretically suck that air via an additional service-port out (would have to be done from the manufacturer, like a service-option where a solenoid would activate it) or "build in" one that has a sealed-off rubber hose going behind the multiair to the oilcap where you can either use a pump to pressurize or create a vakuum, sucking out oil until no air/bubbles can be seen, then refill it back through the oilcap. You would have to take out the multiair, find the perfect position for a hole to be drilled, not damaging any parts inside, then putting in a small hose connector with a rubber seal on it and then take the hose, put it on, to the oilcap and plug it shut. Maybe "gluing" a holder for it. Just because im german and i have to make shit expensive and overcomplicated :D :D :D . Sorry, i love talking nonsense.

Anyway, if the multiair really is still defect or i f***ed smth up along the way its way easier now to get it out than before, especially because of those 2 bolts in the back.

And if nothing helps, well, thats 1000€ thats well spent, because then i have a multiair on which i can try stuff out >:) . Lets TUNE IT BABY!

Anyway, its getting late, have a nice day.
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #34 ·
And while im at it: there is a manufacturer listed inside the multiair, i dont know the name, forgot it. That manufacturer will be a OEM-supplier and most certainly not directly send parts to you for it, for there will be a contract preventing them from it. But as far as i see it the multiair is being outsourced and just labeled with Mopar, so nothing prevents you from just asking them. If i have to build it out because i f***ed smth up i will post it also here, preferably with an answer from that company.
 

·
Registered
2020 Abarth 124 Brillante White Velleno package with Monza exhaust.
Joined
·
1,295 Posts
Ok good you did well replacing the dowels, also glad you sourced the torque specs. To more easily prime the multiair just crank with the cap off. Don’t have any idea why this works but it does. I just had to prime the new engine i put into the Giulia I have been working on and cranked the sh!t out of it and nothing, took the cap off and after a couple cranks she came to life. With regards to the multiair “brick” someone may make some internal parts to it but fiat owns the patent and licenses it to jaguar, and uses it in the Alfas, and the new hybrid Maseratis. No one else is permitted to make or use them to my knowledge. Thank you again for all the detailed instructions and I hope all goes well in your rebuild.oils like you took all the proper precautions to make this a total success!
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 ·
And while i just thought about: some people mention that when you go around corners, sometimes the motor pauses, like if it doesnt wanna ignite for a second until he recovers. That could be because somewhere along the way air made an entrance infront of that sensor and for a brief period it tells the ECU to stop because it doesnt see enough pressure existing. When the oil in the oilpan is being swept sideways and the oil-pump is still pumping, maybe it sucks in a tiny bit of air/vakuum, which is enough to get the sensor confused until the oil purges it. Could be that the oil
-pickup-tube is not down enough.

And also, what i thought about: normally the sensor for the multiair is on the back left side, being accessible with a norrmal wrench. If you wanna purge it, you could put in a 3-way hose connector there, with a rubber O-Ring for sealing, and then pump oil or suck oil through it, then close it off or just put the sensor back in. That way someone would know that oil is present on that sensor. Now i dont know the internal pathways for it, but if the oil-passage is going from back to front, then a small pathways inside to the sensor, that way you could purge all remaining air inside the system and the sensor would be happy.

Damn, if i had a X-Ray-Device i would scan that sh**.
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #37 ·
And just a short follow-up: i talked with an Abarth-mechanic, that missing cap on the multiair is normal, as far as he told me its a "drainage" sort of hole that lets oil escape back into the motorhead, so thats nothing to be concerned about.
Automotive tire Wood Rim Machine tool Nickel


Will see today that i get the car running again.
 

·
Registered
Abarth 124 Spider Turismo, 02/2017
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
So, status-update: i did not get it working yesterday.

because i know the procedure, i took off the cover in around 1 hour and build out the multiair again.

I did 2 mistakes:

1. I did not check all actuators if they properly sit on the valves, the 4th cylinder exhaust-valve was pushed just a little to the side, which lead to misfire. So yeah, i solved that, now all are properly seated. I also check for bend/misaligned stems, but all were still straight, so no damage was done.

2. I will post smth later to the multiair, but just a quick note: if you think that "service"-port under the oilcap is good for smth, then i only can assume if you put good pressure into the multiair when injecting oil, because that thing is useless. To make it short: the multiair has tiny bleeding-holes (2 per oilchamber) that let air escape to the top. If you put a oil-can on that service-port, it fills the first chamber completly up, but because of the bleeding-holes it actually only fills up to the second chambers, the third and forth one were no filled properly because it just comes out on top. So, i did the only reasonable thing: i took off the topcover off the multiair, filled all chambers with oil, then build it back together and installed it. As long as you dont have a pump that makes a good seal around that port, it just comes out back top. Thats also the problem why you need to crank it continuously: at some point they fill up, it just takes an awful time. Its faster to take the head off and inject oil through those bleeding-holes than through the service-port.

As said, will post pictures later to clarify.
 
21 - 38 of 38 Posts
Top