[Handon]

I've been having a cold starting issue with my '17 spider for months that has only seemed to get worse. It started as an initial hesitation to 900-1000rpm and then would slowly make its way up to 2200. Now it goes to about 1100 and stalls out on the first start, then starts perfectly on the second ignition - every time. If I start the car again on a warm engine it has no problem, car runs great once it's running. Here's a video of a cold start I did this morning. My car has 30k miles and I only put 93 in it. Ambient temperature does not seem to make a difference.

Here's what I have checked/replaced so far:
Oil level is good
New AGM Group 35 battery (was stock)
New EC gapped NGK SIKR9A7 spark plugs (was stock)
4C coil packs (figured I might as well if I was replacing plugs, was stock)
Cleaned EC V2 intake filter

Nothing has seemed to affect the cold start behavior. Any ideas?

UPDATE: a bottle of Techron has appeared to fix my problem. Car starts perfect again. Who knew I only needed to spend $8.

 

[rglass]

Are you tuned? Do you have any issues when driving?

 

[Handon]

Are you tuned? Do you have any issues when driving?

I haven't tuned it myself but I am not sure if it was tuned by its previous owner. Car runs solid besides first cold start, no problem pushing it at all.

 

[frankmar]

Before starting, just tap the gas pedal and see. If that works at least it works but that's not normal maybe your choke.

 

[56S]

Ummm Did we just take a trip back in time when engines in the 124 had carburetors?🤔

 

[SteveP.]

Ahhh, this is no choke. @Handon , a couple of things come to mind here right off the bat. You stated you use only 93 Octane fuel. And you state you replaced the spark plugs with EC gapped SIKR9A7 plugs. I will tackle each. A) Fuel. 93 Octane is what we want, but we also want "Top Tier" gasoline. "Top Tier" gas is a special formulation developed to minimize carbon deposits on pistons and valves. A buildup of carbon can cause your problem - cold carbon will absorb fuel, resulting in a "lean" condition which then results in a cold start rough run / stall condition. Once warmed up a bit, the carbon releases the fuel and all is well until the next cold start. If carbon build-up is suspected, go to your local parts store and pick up a bottle of Chevron's "Techron", and use strictly by the instructions on the bottle. Then use "Top Tier" gas religiously. Please see my thread "A Short Treatise on Top Tier Gasoline". B) Spark Plug, pre-gapped. A gap larger than it should be could result in a poor running condition, more so cold - possibly a near flood condition which clears once warmed up. When you install your plugs, the recommended NGK SIKR9A7 should be gapped at .023" - .024" at install, so by the time it is due for replacement a worn plug would be closer to the max. recommended gap of .027". Please see my thread "A Short Treatise on Spark Plugs" . You can also check the recent thread "Spark Plug knowledge needed" . Hope this helps - please keep us posted if you have already covered these two points. We are here to try to help. Best, s

 

[opalescence]

My car has done this once or twice, but I cant say for sure what conditions were the cause, or even related.

Have you done the "italian tune up" yet to shake the carbon buildup off your valves?

Im not in front of my car but what happens if you hold the button in instead of press-release? Does it behave differently?

I think the automatic start button is my least favorite feature on our cars. The joys of modern tech... Id love someday to start my car with a real key.

 

[rglass]

I had a similar issue but the car would never fail to start. The cause of mine may be different to yours - but long story short:

My stock intercooler had a significant leak. It was causing the engine to run pretty rich and quickly carbon foul my plugs. Running a injector cleaner like Amsoil P.I helped temporarily…but the issue returned. It wasn’t until I replaced Intercooler and it’s piping, and then dropped in a new set of plugs did my start-issues go away. So my suggestion, do a boost leak test just to be sure the same isn’t happening to you.

Other items you could check are: compression, battery/alternator voltage, borescope the cylinders (perhaps oil or fuel is sitting inside).

I’d also suggest turning on the ignition but don’t crank the car immediately. Let the fuel pump do it’s thing for a few seconds and then start the car, see if that makes any difference.

 

[Handon]

Ahhh, this is no choke. @Handon , a couple of things come to mind here right off the bat. You stated you use only 93 Octane fuel. And you state you replaced the spark plugs with EC gapped SIKR9A7 plugs. I will tackle each. A) Fuel. 93 Octane is what we want, but we also want "Top Tier" gasoline. "Top Tier" gas is a special formulation developed to minimize carbon deposits on pistons and valves. A buildup of carbon can cause your problem - cold carbon will absorb fuel, resulting in a "lean" condition which then results in a cold start rough run / stall condition. Once warmed up a bit, the carbon releases the fuel and all is well until the next cold start. If carbon build-up is suspected, go to your local parts store and pick up a bottle of Chevron's "Techron", and use strictly by the instructions on the bottle. Then use "Top Tier" gas religiously. Please see my thread "A Short Treatise on Top Tier Gasoline". B) Spark Plug, pre-gapped. A gap larger than it should be could result in a poor running condition, more so cold - possibly a near flood condition which clears once warmed up. When you install your plugs, the recommended NGK SIKR9A7 should be gapped at .023" - .024" at install, so by the time it is due for replacement a worn plug would be closer to the max. recommended gap of .027". Please see my thread "A Short Treatise on Spark Plugs" . You can also check the recent thread "Spark Plug knowledge needed" . Hope this helps - please keep us posted if you have already covered these two points. We are here to try to help. Best, s

I go out of my way to fill up at Costco, although obviously no idea what the previous owner put in the car so for $9 I think I'll try my luck with some Techron. The plugs I installed were the pre-gapped .023-.024 EC ones. Here's the old plugs that I pulled in case you see anything awry - front cylinder on the left to cylinder closest to the driver on the right. Yes I did have some oil in #4. The #1 cylinder also had some... gunk in it? I posted a picture at the bottom response of this.

My car has done this once or twice, but I cant say for sure what conditions were the cause, or even related.

Have you done the "italian tune up" yet to shake the carbon buildup off your valves?

Im not in front of my car but what happens if you hold the button in instead of press-release? Does it behave differently?

I think the automatic start button is my least favorite feature on our cars. The joys of modern tech... Id love someday to start my car with a real key.

I have not done the "italian tune up" yet. Is that the "holding the button" and just cranking like you said?

I had a similar issue but the car would never fail to start. The cause of mine may be different to yours - but long story short:

My stock intercooler had a significant leak. It was causing the engine to run pretty rich and quickly carbon foul my plugs. Running a injector cleaner like Amsoil P.I helped temporarily…but the issue returned. It wasn’t until I replaced Intercooler and it’s piping, and then dropped in a new set of plugs did my start-issues go away. So my suggestion, do a boost leak test just to be sure the same isn’t happening to you.

Other items you could check are: compression, battery/alternator voltage, borescope the cylinders (perhaps oil or fuel is sitting inside).

I’d also suggest turning on the ignition but don’t crank the car immediately. Let the fuel pump do it’s thing for a few seconds and then start the car, see if that makes any difference.

I'll try turning on the ignition but not cranking immediately. I had the alternator checked when I replaced my battery and they said it was fine. As for the cylinders, I didn't borescope them but I did try to take some pictures when I replaced the plugs. #2-4 looked like the first picture, but cylinder #1 had some gunk in it (second picture).

 

[SteveP.]

Hmmm . . . It was my understanding that all Costco stations provided Top Tier gasoline. But a quick search on the " www.toptiergas.com " website, using Louisville KY in the search bar shows Shell, Valero, Sunoco, Citgo and Express. No Costco . . . The business end of the original plugs look ok to me as far as I can see, the amount of oil on the top of plug 4 seems excessive, but I would not tell you that is your problem at this point. Are there any DTC's / Check Engine Light? s

 

[Handon]

Hmmm . . . It was my understanding that all Costco stations provided Top Tier gasoline. But a quick search on the " www.toptiergas.com " website, using Louisville KY in the search bar shows Shell, Valero, Sunoco, Citgo and Express. No Costco . . . The business end of the original plugs look ok to me as far as I can see, the amount of oil on the top of plug 4 seems excessive, but I would not tell you that is your problem at this point. Are there any DTC's / Check Engine Light? s

I had to look myself, it's not labeled as Costco but there is a top tier logo over where it should be. No DTC's or CEL's when I scanned it yesterday.

 

[SteveP.]

K., I think I would try a bottle of Techron, then follow with a couple of tankfull's of say Shell or Valero instead and see what happens . . . and also check suggestions as made by @opalescence ( my guess is "Italian Tune" means give 'er a "Hot Suppah", or "Run her hard") and @rglass suggested. And maybe @mtnghost , @Calehedron etc. will weigh in - difficult to diag. especially at a distance, but keep us posted and will do our best to solve. Note: if you can access data, check and verify if coolant temp. and ambient air temp.seem reasonable to your particular situation - in other words, if you have let your car sit 24 hours, ambient temp reading, coolant temp reading and real air temp. should all be the same within a couple of degrees. Best,

 

[rglass]

Plugs 1,3 and 4 look like they have an excessive amount of oil on them. I would dig deeper into that. Perhaps oil is fouling your plugs but the second start manages to burn it off.

 

[Arthur]

I've been having a cold starting issue with my '17 spider for months that has only seemed to get worse. It started as an initial hesitation to 900-1000rpm and then would slowly make its way up to 2200. Now it goes to about 1100 and stalls out on the first start, then starts perfectly on the second ignition - every time. If I start the car again on a warm engine it has no problem, car runs great once it's running. Here's a video of a cold start I did this morning. My car has 30k miles and I only put 93 in it. Ambient temperature does not seem to make a difference.

Here's what I have checked/replaced so far:
Oil level is good
New AGM Group 35 battery (was stock)
New EC gapped NGK SIKR9A7 spark plugs (was stock)
4C coil packs (figured I might as well if I was replacing plugs, was stock)
Cleaned EC V2 intake filter

Nothing has seemed to affect the cold start behavior. Any ideas?

Hi Handon
Did you carry out the ""phonic wheel learning procedure" following the battery disconnected/reconnect as per the Owners Manual ?

 

[Project124]

I second the excessive oil theory mentioned above. There seems to be more than there should be on multiple plugs. I'm also wondering if the second start is burning that excess off, thus allowing the car to start on the second attempt.

 

[azzura]

The oil on the plugs does look a lot, but surely it would have to reach above the insulator to cause a problem?

i never knew that we were supposed to do that "phonic wheel learning procedure" after replacing the battery: I have disconnected the battery many times when carrying out work or for periods of storage, and never experienced any problems, but maybe the electrics are smart enough to recognise the old (original) battery vs. a new one?

The phonic wheel learn procedure was needed on my son's Punto Evo 1.2 8v engine after a recent cam belt change. Apparently the ECU detects tiny differences in the cam/crank sensor relative timings following a belt change, even if the cams are locked with cylinder 1 at TDC. I was sceptical about it but we kept getting intermittent P0300/P0302/P0303 misfire errors after the belt change even though most of the time it was running fine with no starting problems. I showed the garage the "phonic wheel learn" option on their diagnostic machine and they did it, and now it's all ok. The procedure was to rev 3 times to 5-6,000rpm then return to idle. So it's interesting that this Multiair engine is similarly "fussy" that the learn procedure is built in now, and needed even when doing something as simple as disconnecting/reconnecting the battery?!

 

[rglass]

Considering that the electrode end of the plugs are exposed to the combustion process, it’s entirely possible a small amount of oil on the ends are causing hard starts, but are being burned off after those two starts. All the blow-by isn’t exposed to the combustion, so it just sits there.

 

[mtnghost]

Ok judging by your video, it seems like you may have a vacuum leak. Do you by chance have an OBD scanner? If so check fuel trims, and report back. Last but not least this happens to my truck when I run e85 in the winter but it’s a bit worse. (Truck is not tuned for it and it’s hard to start.) The fuel you are using is now a winter blend or maybe still a summer one, and I can’t remember which but one has ethanol as an oxidizer. Get a cheap scanner and more info and I’m sure we will figure this out.

 

[SteveP.]

The oil on the plugs does look a lot, but surely it would have to reach above the insulator to cause a problem?

i never knew that we were supposed to do that "phonic wheel learning procedure" after replacing the battery: I have disconnected the battery many times when carrying out work or for periods of storage, and never experienced any problems, but maybe the electrics are smart enough to recognise the old (original) battery vs. a new one?

The phonic wheel learn procedure was needed on my son's Punto Evo 1.2 8v engine after a recent cam belt change. Apparently the ECU detects tiny differences in the cam/crank sensor relative timings following a belt change, even if the cams are locked with cylinder 1 at TDC. I was sceptical about it but we kept getting intermittent P0300/P0302/P0303 misfire errors after the belt change even though most of the time it was running fine with no starting problems. I showed the garage the "phonic wheel learn" option on their diagnostic machine and they did it, and now it's all ok. The procedure was to rev 3 times to 5-6,000rpm then return to idle. So it's interesting that this Multiair engine is similarly "fussy" that the learn procedure is built in now, and needed even when doing something as simple as disconnecting/reconnecting the battery?!

Oil in the spark plug wells is a very common issue among many different brands of cars. However, in my experience does not cause any problems unless /until A) The oil level reaches the coil boot (or plug wire on those cars so equipped) where it softens the boot material and thus sets up a situation where the spark will blow through the boot to ground instead of across the electrodes in the combustion chamber. B) You remove the plug and allow the oil to enter the combustion chamber where it may temporarily foul the plug. Note: I am assuming the plug is properly torqued so as to not allow oil to deep past the threads, or combustion gases to blow past the threads. While the oil leak into the plug wells should be properly repaired, this condition most likely isn't causing the cold start issues. When changing plugs, oil can be mostly mopped up with paper towels, brakekleen and a thin screwdriver before plug removal. If the coil boots are contaminated, cleanup is essential and coils may need replacing. I could not find any reference to "phonic wheel learning" upon battery disconnection or replacement in either my owners or service manuals, but may be a special program on the dealers diagnostic (scan) tool. The crankshaft position sensor monitors engine rotational speed and knows which cylinder is firing. If the ECM sees a microsecond slowdown in rotational speed at say, when cyl. #2 fires, it will record a DTC P0302. So it wouldn't surprise me if there is a "rotational speed relearn procedure" or some such to reset the ECM thought process. s.

 

[Arthur]

Ok judging by your video, it seems like you may have a vacuum leak. Do you by chance have an OBD scanner? If so check fuel trims, and report back. Also curious as to what the MAF sensor sees. When you cleaned the filter did you oil the crap out of it? I have seen oil coat the MAF and cause this exact issue. Last but not least this happens to my truck when I run e85 in the winter but it’s a bit worse. (Truck is not tuned for it and it’s hard to start.) The fuel you are using is now a winter blend or maybe still a summer one, and I can’t remember which but one has ethanol as an oxidizer. Get a cheap scanner and more info and I’m sure we will figure this out.

Oil in the spark plug wells is a very common issue among many different brands of cars. However, in my experience does not cause any problems unless /until A) The oil level reaches the coil boot (or plug wire on those cars so equipped) where it softens the boot material and thus sets up a situation where the spark will blow through the boot to ground instead of across the electrodes in the combustion chamber. B) You remove the plug and allow the oil to enter the combustion chamber where it may temporarily foul the plug. Note: I am assuming the plug is properly torqued so as to not allow oil to deep past the threads, or combustion gases to blow past the threads. While the oil leak into the plug wells should be properly repaired, this condition most likely isn't causing the cold start issues. When changing plugs, oil can be mostly mopped up with paper towels, brakekleen and a thin screwdriver before plug removal. If the coil boots are contaminated, cleanup is essential and coils may need replacing. I could not find any reference to "phonic wheel learning" upon battery disconnection or replacement in either my owners or service manuals, but may be a special program on the dealers diagnostic (scan) tool. The crankshaft position sensor monitors engine rotational speed and knows which cylinder is firing. If the ECM sees a microsecond slowdown in rotational speed at say, when cyl. #2 fires, it will record a DTC P0302. So it wouldn't surprise me if there is a "rotational speed relearn procedure" or some such to reset the ECM thought process. s.

1. There is no MAF/MAF sensor.
2. The phonic learning procedure following battery disconnect/reconnect is in the UK/EURO handbook. I'm thinking it's there for a reason..... it wouldn't hurt to do it anyhow.