Stock vs High Flow Air Filters??

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5961

Discussion Starter · Feb 7, 2017

So with our Torbo MulitFlow engines, cleanliness of everything is critical. That being said, a high flow air filter will allow more air into the engine along with more dirt. It's pure logic. So are you guys sticking with just the stock Fiat air filter or something else.
Who makes Fiat air filters?. Anybody Knows?? K&N has a oil saturated air filter, that I am a little leary about. Why spray oil on a filter to catch dirt but then have it sucked into the turbo?
I think anything high flow will make the oil dirtier, thus leaving the door open for some MultiAir failure of an oil flow channel near the selunoid and causing a costly repair.
So what are you guys using for airfilters and why.
Thanks for all answers. Cyberbill, Austin

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Greg

· #2 · Feb 7, 2017 (Edited)

I have been over this before, so I'll be brief. The K&N panel filter that fits the 124 does not flow any more air than the stock filter (at least not on my flow bench). Although the actual materiel in the K&N is more free flowing, it's offset by its reduced filter area. In other words, the stock filter has deeper pleats and thus more area. So in terms of performance the two are essentially identical.

So what does the K&N filter offer? Simple, it's washable and reusable. Lots of people have been using them on Multiair engines and they work just fine. They don't filter quite as well as some other options (my opinion) but they don't let anything through that's large enough to cause any measurable wear. Generally speaking objects greater than 10 microns in diameter cause most engine wear and down to that level the K&N filters pretty darn well.

Greg

Note: This post is 124 specific. In many cases the K&N panel filters have deeper pleats and do outperform stock paper filters. I don't know why they dropped the ball with the 124 filter.

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Reactions: 5

2naCanDan

· #3 · Feb 8, 2017

I will be running an AFE stock replacement filter. The car is in storage right now, so I don't have any experience/ feedback on this specific product but have run one their systems on my '05 Dodge for 10 years now and never had an issue. Here is a link to the one I have.

http://afepower.com/afe-power-31-10266-magnum-flow-pro-dry-s-air-filter

Reactions: 2

Greg

· #4 · Feb 8, 2017

2naCanDan said:
I will be running an AFE stock replacement filter. The car is in storage right now, so I don't have any experience/ feedback on this specific product but have run one their systems on my '05 Dodge for 10 years now and never had an issue. Here is a link to the one I have.

http://afepower.com/afe-power-31-10266-magnum-flow-pro-dry-s-air-filter

That looks nice and I think it would be a nice combination with our V1 intake.

Greg

Reactions: 1

JFernald

· #5 · Feb 8, 2017

Cyberbill said:
So with our Torbo MulitFlow engines, cleanliness of everything is critical. That being said, a high flow air filter will allow more air into the engine along with more dirt. It's pure logic. So are you guys sticking with just the stock Fiat air filter or something else.
Who makes Fiat air filters?. Anybody Knows?? K&N has a oil saturated air filter, that I am a little leary about. Why spray oil on a filter to catch dirt but then have it sucked into the turbo?
I think anything high flow will make the oil dirtier, thus leaving the door open for some MultiAir failure of an oil flow channel near the selunoid and causing a costly repair.
So what are you guys using for airfilters and why.
Thanks for all answers. Cyberbill, Austin

Your logic is not all that "pure." A high flow air filter does not necessarily allow more dirt in. If the element filters a larger surface area than the stock element, it can catch more dirt than a standard filter. The air box on the Spider is large enough to accommodate a filter much larger than the stock one. Also, the stock filter element is not the most efficient type of filter material. If the K&N filter had a larger surface area, one easily accommodate by the air box, it could filter more air, with less dirt allowed through than the stock filter.

Reactions: 1

MotoPete

· #6 · Feb 8, 2017

Made in conjunction with K&N, so may not be any better than their oiled filter product.

http://www.jamesbaroneracing.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=964

karmatourer

· #7 · Feb 8, 2017

Cyberbill said:
So with our Torbo MulitFlow engines, cleanliness of everything is critical. That being said, a high flow air filter will allow more air into the engine along with more dirt. It's pure logic. So are you guys sticking with just the stock Fiat air filter or something else.
Who makes Fiat air filters?. Anybody Knows?? K&N has a oil saturated air filter, that I am a little leary about. Why spray oil on a filter to catch dirt but then have it sucked into the turbo?
I think anything high flow will make the oil dirtier, thus leaving the door open for some MultiAir failure of an oil flow channel near the selunoid and causing a costly repair.
So what are you guys using for airfilters and why.
Thanks for all answers. Cyberbill, Austin

No,it's NOT "pure logic". I suggest you familiarize yourself with the filter media.

PureAdrenaline

· #8 · Feb 8, 2017

MotoPete said:
Made in conjunction with K&N, so may not be any better than their oiled filter product.

http://www.jamesbaroneracing.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=964

Pete

The JBR filter does appear to be a clone of the K&N....however the AFE is designed and built in house by AFE...in fact it has more pleats than the JBR...I don't really know how well it performs other than AFE flow specs over stock...not promoting AFE just pointing out that it is not a clone of the K&N like the JBR is...

MotoPete

· #9 · Feb 8, 2017

PureAdrenaline said:
Pete

The JBR filter does appear to be a clone of the K&N....however the AFE is designed and built in house by AFE...in fact it has more pleats than the JBR...I don't really know how well it performs other than AFE flow specs over stock...not promoting AFE just pointing out that it is not a clone of the K&N like the JBR is...

As I said, it says on their page it was "co-developed" so chances are there isn't any difference, but unfortunately there isn't sufficient information available as to whether it is the same as the oiled product or not.

As an aside, you need also to consider pleat height, width, and length in addition to the number to determine total filtering surface area.

The AFE looks to be a quality product, it's likely the one I'd go for.

Reactions: 1

PureAdrenaline

· #10 · Feb 8, 2017

MotoPete said:
As I said, it says on their page it was "co-developed" so chances are there isn't any difference, but unfortunately there isn't sufficient information available as to whether it is the same as the oiled product or not.

As an aside, you need also to consider pleat height, width, and length in addition to the number to determine total filtering surface area.

The AFE looks to be a quality product, it's likely the one I'd go for.

All those factors are critical...I think I will contact AFE and see if they are willing to divulge any of that information about their filter...stay tuned...

PureAdrenaline

· #11 · Feb 8, 2017

I have contacted AFE about filter specs...

PureAdrenaline

· #12 · Feb 8, 2017 (Edited)

Just spoke with the director of engineering at AFE...he said he would be happy to provide us with some data on the filter...I will post it up as soon as I get it

Reactions: 2

PureAdrenaline

· #13 · Feb 9, 2017

I have received the information from aFE...

"Clay,

Here is some info for you:

Pleated Material Surface Area - 300.96 sq. in.
Pleat Height - 25mm
Number of Pleats - 33

I also had someone grab a filter from stock and flow it on our flow bench - 482.3 CFM @ 1.5 in. H2O"

I also asked if they knew the difference in surface area between their filter and the OEM...I will let you know...looks good to me... I will be getting one soon to try out...stay tuned...thanks to aFE for the quick response...

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2naCanDan

· #14 · Feb 9, 2017

PureAdrenaline said:
I have received the information from aFE...

"Clay,

Here is some info for you:

Pleated Material Surface Area - 300.96 sq. in.
Pleat Height - 25mm
Number of Pleats - 33

I also had someone grab a filter from stock and flow it on our flow bench - 482.3 CFM @ 1.5 in. H2O"

I also asked if they knew the difference in surface area between their filter and the OEM...I will let you know...looks good to me... I will be getting one soon to try out...stay tuned...thanks to aFE for the quick response...

That was a super quick response! Great job hunting down the info!

Reactions: 2

karmatourer

· #15 · Feb 9, 2017

I mentioned filter media earlier and there seemed to be little interest.
This is from the 1st source I saw on a search ( https://mobiloil.com/en/article/car...ferent-types-of-oil-filters-and-how-they-work)
The point is was trying to make is there is more to a filter than the # of pleats or surface area,ect.
"In part,"Paper or plastic?
Filter media is another difference. Some filters are engineered with synthetic filter media (rather than pleated paper-based media). The synthetic media is said to be capable of trapping small contaminants over a longer period of time (higher miles). Additionally, some synthetic filters include special blends of rubber for gaskets and drainback valves. The purpose? Like the filter media, they're designed to last longer. Finally, some synthetic filters actually have larger (typically longer) bodies than conventional filters, which means they have more capacity. Because of these factors, some synthetic oil filters have service lives of anywhere from 7,000 to 25,000 miles.
As you can see, there are plenty of variables found inside oil filters. So what's right for your car, truck, motorcycle or other vehicle fitted with an internal combustion engine? The answer is, it depends. You really need to carefully study the specifications of each filter to determine the suitability for your particular application. If your vehicle is newer, you should also give some serious consideration to the warranty. Some filters may not be deemed compatible by the vehicle manufacturer, and that's important when it comes to a warranty claim".

There is far more to media than "paper or plastic". A search on the subject will show far more than I know.

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PureAdrenaline

· #16 · Feb 9, 2017 (Edited)

As Greg said in his earlier post...the stock filter has deep pleats which produces a considerable area advantage...just a rough estimate(my measurements) puts the stock filter around 405 sq. in. as compared to 301 sq. in. for the aFE...both K&N and aFE test their units with flow benches set up the same....K&N quotes flow rating of 458 while aFE says 482...aFE quotes the OEM filter at 361 while K&N does not make any statements about stock filter flow...that is an increase in airflow over the stock filter of 33%...that's a considerable increase...if they are truly flowing that much more with less area than there must be a reason...next comes the filtration question...aFE quotes 98.6% filtration efficiency and K&N quotes 98.5% filtration efficiency...these are both multilayered cotton media oiled filters...finding a spec on the OEM stock filter may be like chasing a needle in a haystack but it will be somewhere between 99% and 100%...the question persists...what amount of air cleanliness are we sacrificing for air flow and is it a worthwhile trade off...I think school is still out on this subject...but I might add that Greg from Eurocompulsion has said that many of his Fiat 500 turbo people have ran K&N oiled filters on their 1.4 multi air engines with no issues...so the choice is yours...

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kpoling

· #17 · Feb 9, 2017

PureAdrenaline said:
As Greg said in his earlier post...the stock filter has deep pleats which produces a considerable area advantage...just a rough estimate(my measurements) puts the stock filter around 405 sq. in. as compared to 301 sq. in. for the aFE...both K&N and aFE test their units with flow benches set up the same....K&N quotes flow rating of 458 while aFE says 482...aFE quotes the OEM filter at 361 while K&N does not make any statements about stock filter flow...that is an increase in airflow over the stock filter of 33%...that's a considerable increase...if they are truly flowing that much more with less area than there must be a reason...next comes the filtration question...aFE quotes 98.6% filtration efficiency and K&N quotes 98.5% filtration efficiency...these are both multilayered cotton media oiled filters...finding a spec on the OEM stock filter may be like chasing a needle in a haystack but it will be somewhere between 99% and 100%...the question persists...what amount of air cleanliness are we sacrificing for air flow and is it a worthwhile trade off...I think school is still out on this subject...but I might add that Greg from Eurocompulsion has said that many of his Fiat 500 turbo people have ran K&N oiled filters on their 1.4 multi air engines with no issues...so the choice is yours...

Greg also noted in an earlier post that the K&N filter showed no advantage over stock after their testing. Might not be the same story on the 500 but evidently the stock filter choice was something Fiat got right.

5961

Discussion Starter · #18 · Feb 9, 2017

karmatourer said:
I mentioned filter media earlier and there seemed to be little interest.
This is from the 1st source I saw on a search ( https://mobiloil.com/en/article/car...ferent-types-of-oil-filters-and-how-they-work)
The point is was trying to make is there is more to a filter than the # of pleats or surface area,ect.
"In part,"Paper or plastic?
Filter media is another difference. Some filters are engineered with synthetic filter media (rather than pleated paper-based media). The synthetic media is said to be capable of trapping small contaminants over a longer period of time (higher miles). Additionally, some synthetic filters include special blends of rubber for gaskets and drainback valves. The purpose? Like the filter media, they're designed to last longer. Finally, some synthetic filters actually have larger (typically longer) bodies than conventional filters, which means they have more capacity. Because of these factors, some synthetic oil filters have service lives of anywhere from 7,000 to 25,000 miles.
As you can see, there are plenty of variables found inside oil filters. So what's right for your car, truck, motorcycle or other vehicle fitted with an internal combustion engine? The answer is, it depends. You really need to carefully study the specifications of each filter to determine the suitability for your particular application. If your vehicle is newer, you should also give some serious consideration to the warranty. Some filters may not be deemed compatible by the vehicle manufacturer, and that's important when it comes to a warranty claim".

There is far more to media than "paper or plastic". A search on the subject will show far more than I know.

I believe we are talking about Stock Air Filters....not oil Filters...

5961

Discussion Starter · #19 · Feb 9, 2017

PureAdrenaline said:
I have received the information from aFE...

"Clay,

Here is some info for you:

Pleated Material Surface Area - 300.96 sq. in.
Pleat Height - 25mm
Number of Pleats - 33

I also had someone grab a filter from stock and flow it on our flow bench - 482.3 CFM @ 1.5 in. H2O"

I also asked if they knew the difference in surface area between their filter and the OEM...I will let you know...looks good to me... I will be getting one soon to try out...stay tuned...thanks to aFE for the quick response...

This is great info. I ran aFE air filter on my 2015 Mustang Gt 50 year anniversary and I can tell you that the oil did get a bit dirty around the 4,000 mile mark. Maybe living in dusty central Texas doesn't help. I am definitely getting an aFE air filter for my 124 Spider. Cyberbill

Reactions: 1

PureAdrenaline

· #20 · Feb 9, 2017

I am going to use the aFE as soon as it arrives...I will clean it more often (at least at each oil change which is about 3500 miles for me) just to keep it at it maximum performance as any performance advantage will degrade quickly as the filter gets dirty...

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