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Stock vs High Flow Air Filters??

23K views 49 replies 18 participants last post by  Mikeyw 
#1 ·
So with our Torbo MulitFlow engines, cleanliness of everything is critical. That being said, a high flow air filter will allow more air into the engine along with more dirt. It's pure logic. So are you guys sticking with just the stock Fiat air filter or something else.
Who makes Fiat air filters?. Anybody Knows?? K&N has a oil saturated air filter, that I am a little leary about. Why spray oil on a filter to catch dirt but then have it sucked into the turbo?
I think anything high flow will make the oil dirtier, thus leaving the door open for some MultiAir failure of an oil flow channel near the selunoid and causing a costly repair.
So what are you guys using for airfilters and why.
Thanks for all answers. Cyberbill, Austin
 
#2 · (Edited)
I have been over this before, so I'll be brief. The K&N panel filter that fits the 124 does not flow any more air than the stock filter (at least not on my flow bench). Although the actual materiel in the K&N is more free flowing, it's offset by its reduced filter area. In other words, the stock filter has deeper pleats and thus more area. So in terms of performance the two are essentially identical.

So what does the K&N filter offer? Simple, it's washable and reusable. Lots of people have been using them on Multiair engines and they work just fine. They don't filter quite as well as some other options (my opinion) but they don't let anything through that's large enough to cause any measurable wear. Generally speaking objects greater than 10 microns in diameter cause most engine wear and down to that level the K&N filters pretty darn well.

Greg

Note: This post is 124 specific. In many cases the K&N panel filters have deeper pleats and do outperform stock paper filters. I don't know why they dropped the ball with the 124 filter.
 
#48 ·
I installed a K&N filter and immediately noticed the engine revs more freely, accelerates more readily and warms up more quickly. K&N makes it almost feel like i put it in ¨sport mode¨, so I highly recommend it. They also don´t need changing for at least 20k, even 50k they say (I will clean and re oil it before that), so better performance and you save time and money.
 
#3 ·
#4 ·
#5 ·
So with our Torbo MulitFlow engines, cleanliness of everything is critical. That being said, a high flow air filter will allow more air into the engine along with more dirt. It's pure logic. So are you guys sticking with just the stock Fiat air filter or something else.
Who makes Fiat air filters?. Anybody Knows?? K&N has a oil saturated air filter, that I am a little leary about. Why spray oil on a filter to catch dirt but then have it sucked into the turbo?
I think anything high flow will make the oil dirtier, thus leaving the door open for some MultiAir failure of an oil flow channel near the selunoid and causing a costly repair.
So what are you guys using for airfilters and why.
Thanks for all answers. Cyberbill, Austin
Your logic is not all that "pure." A high flow air filter does not necessarily allow more dirt in. If the element filters a larger surface area than the stock element, it can catch more dirt than a standard filter. The air box on the Spider is large enough to accommodate a filter much larger than the stock one. Also, the stock filter element is not the most efficient type of filter material. If the K&N filter had a larger surface area, one easily accommodate by the air box, it could filter more air, with less dirt allowed through than the stock filter.
 
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#8 ·
Pete

The JBR filter does appear to be a clone of the K&N....however the AFE is designed and built in house by AFE...in fact it has more pleats than the JBR...I don't really know how well it performs other than AFE flow specs over stock...not promoting AFE just pointing out that it is not a clone of the K&N like the JBR is...
 
#13 ·
I have received the information from aFE...

"Clay,

Here is some info for you:

Pleated Material Surface Area - 300.96 sq. in.
Pleat Height - 25mm
Number of Pleats - 33

I also had someone grab a filter from stock and flow it on our flow bench - 482.3 CFM @ 1.5 in. H2O"


I also asked if they knew the difference in surface area between their filter and the OEM...I will let you know...looks good to me... I will be getting one soon to try out...stay tuned...thanks to aFE for the quick response...
 
#15 ·
I mentioned filter media earlier and there seemed to be little interest.
This is from the 1st source I saw on a search ( https://mobiloil.com/en/article/car...ferent-types-of-oil-filters-and-how-they-work)
The point is was trying to make is there is more to a filter than the # of pleats or surface area,ect.
"In part,"Paper or plastic?
Filter media is another difference. Some filters are engineered with synthetic filter media (rather than pleated paper-based media). The synthetic media is said to be capable of trapping small contaminants over a longer period of time (higher miles). Additionally, some synthetic filters include special blends of rubber for gaskets and drainback valves. The purpose? Like the filter media, they're designed to last longer. Finally, some synthetic filters actually have larger (typically longer) bodies than conventional filters, which means they have more capacity. Because of these factors, some synthetic oil filters have service lives of anywhere from 7,000 to 25,000 miles.
As you can see, there are plenty of variables found inside oil filters. So what's right for your car, truck, motorcycle or other vehicle fitted with an internal combustion engine? The answer is, it depends. You really need to carefully study the specifications of each filter to determine the suitability for your particular application. If your vehicle is newer, you should also give some serious consideration to the warranty. Some filters may not be deemed compatible by the vehicle manufacturer, and that's important when it comes to a warranty claim".

There is far more to media than "paper or plastic". A search on the subject will show far more than I know.
 
#16 · (Edited)
As Greg said in his earlier post...the stock filter has deep pleats which produces a considerable area advantage...just a rough estimate(my measurements) puts the stock filter around 405 sq. in. as compared to 301 sq. in. for the aFE...both K&N and aFE test their units with flow benches set up the same....K&N quotes flow rating of 458 while aFE says 482...aFE quotes the OEM filter at 361 while K&N does not make any statements about stock filter flow...that is an increase in airflow over the stock filter of 33%...that's a considerable increase...if they are truly flowing that much more with less area than there must be a reason...next comes the filtration question...aFE quotes 98.6% filtration efficiency and K&N quotes 98.5% filtration efficiency...these are both multilayered cotton media oiled filters...finding a spec on the OEM stock filter may be like chasing a needle in a haystack but it will be somewhere between 99% and 100%...the question persists...what amount of air cleanliness are we sacrificing for air flow and is it a worthwhile trade off...I think school is still out on this subject...but I might add that Greg from Eurocompulsion has said that many of his Fiat 500 turbo people have ran K&N oiled filters on their 1.4 multi air engines with no issues...so the choice is yours...
 
#17 ·
Greg also noted in an earlier post that the K&N filter showed no advantage over stock after their testing. Might not be the same story on the 500 but evidently the stock filter choice was something Fiat got right.
 
#33 ·
Okay, so just a slight oil problem, potentially. Nothing that an inspection and clean of the filter shouldn't take care of, it seems.

Instead of the crankcase oil vapor being sucked back into the throttle intake it's 'condensing' on the intake boot and rolling back into the filter housing? Is that correct? The catch can (first I've heard of such a thing to be honest) catches the vaporized oil before it reaches the intake system?
 
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#37 · (Edited)
This car throws a surprising amount of oil into the intake. I thought the 500 Abarth and the Dart threw in a lot, but this one is worse. In the case of the stock intake or our V1 intake, all that oil goes through the turbo, intercoolers, and so on. When you shut off the engine, the oil sits in the intake tube until you start the engine again and it continues its journey.

I have always been surprised at how little oil it takes to make a big mess. Even a thimble full of oil can coat a large area, an amount equal to about 1/2 a shot glass can make an incredible mess.

In the case of the V4, the same amount of oil goes in, and the oil takes the same journey, but when you shut off the engine some of it can trickle downhill and collect in the filter. It's a very small amount, and once the engine starts the oil continues its journey, but at any given time there will be some oil collecting in there, it's normal and it's harmless. The V4's filter has a rubber 0-ring to prevent the oil from dripping out. In the case of Pure's car, his was one of the first V4s (may have actually been the first) and his didn't have that o-ring. We sent him one but for some reason it didn't seal. I am taking care if it for him.

The air:eek:il separator (aka catch can) is a bit off topic, but it's sort of related. The factory separator is poor, so we going to release a kit that adds an additional separator. We were ready to release it, but one of my guys figured out a way to make a worthwhile improvement at almost zero additional cost, so we are delaying it until this new version is ready. Assuming that this change works as we think it will and passes testing, I think that when other vendors see it, every one will copy our configuration, or the do-it-yourselves out there could buy a catch can hoses, bracket, etc. and duplicate with good results. So there is no point in releasing the current version which has been seen on another thread.

Greg
 
#39 ·
A compelling reason for anyone with non-fluoro (FMVQ) lined silicon hose intakes (from any manufacturer) to fit a catch can is that over the long term oil and silicone do NOT play nicely together.

I've fitted one solution today, some happy snaps to follow tomorrow on the catch can thread (to keep this one on topic)...

http://www.124spider.org/forum/10-engine-technical-discussion/8466-catch-can.html
 
#43 ·
Yeah, good question, Bob.

Hey Greg, did your guys ever bench test the aFe filters against the other filters (stock and K&N), like y'all said you would? I for one would love to see the comparison results.

I did install the non-oil version aFe filter into my factory air box when I installed the EC V1 air intake tube. This was when the car was brand new. As far as I know, it has been working just fine. I'm a bit over 5000 miles now, maybe I should pull it out and clean it.

Steve.
 
#45 ·
Well my AFE air filter and PTP turbo blanket have arrived. I had them shipped to Florida, save some shipping cost and tomorrow I will have them. I will try to install them by next weekend.
So my V1 can breath more.
 
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