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Discussion Starter #1
Hi folks,

I'm hoping the Multiair experts can help me with this. At some stage I will be forging the bottom end to support a turbo upgrade. I have been pointed towards a rod and piston combo offered by PEC Automotive in the UK. Trouble is they have the parts listed for the Abarth 500 which also shares a 1.4 l 16 valve Multiair engine. I have contacted the owner to confirm if they are fine to use the 124 but he's not sure.

Being new to Fiat I need an expert to confirm they are in fact the exact same specification engine. I have looked on Wikipedia and I think they are as there are no defining engine codes I can find between the 124 and the 500.

Here is the link to the products and their specifications;

http://www.steelconrods.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=22_33_125&products_id=1524

Thanks for your help,
Ant.
 

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I'm not an expert who can weigh in, but I am curious to know the size of your turbo upgrade, the amount of boost you will have and the horsepower & torque figures you are expecting.
 

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I'm not an expert who can weigh in, but I am curious to know the size of your turbo upgrade, the amount of boost you will have and the horsepower & torque figures you are expecting.
At this stage that's all unknown I'm sorry. What I do know is EC has achieved 300hp+ at the crank with the ATP 1752 turbo and cam upgrade. Not sure of the boost level either sorry.

I'm in contact with a few turbo specialists at the moment but haven't decided on which way to go.

My goals are anything over 300rwhp and under 350rwhp (Australian Dyno subtract at least 20whp from US quoted power figures). The set up needs to be reliable and not maxing out any hardware etc.

EC will play a big part in putting this together for me especially when it comes to the ECU tune :D
 

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You biggest problem won´t be the hardware, it is the MultiAir ECU Software.
And over 230KW and 400Nm at clutch (FCA uses also the EU regulations for power figures) is strong and a long way to go.
How much rwhp does the standard 124Spider have in AUS? What is the different to the factory figures of 170PS (125KW)
 

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Trade it now and buy a Cayman S. You are about to spend the same amount of money to get a similar car. LOL
 
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Trade it now and buy a Cayman S. You are about to spend the same amount of money to get a similar car. LOL
LOL. really? Maybe you're drunk on your newly exulted Moderator title? The Australian Porsche Cayman S Manual is $173.447.

I'm here for help and not an argument. Especially from those who are here to protect me from such comments.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
You biggest problem won´t be the hardware, it is the MultiAir ECU Software.
And over 230KW and 400Nm at clutch (FCA uses also the EU regulations for power figures) is strong and a long way to go.
How much rwhp does the standard 124Spider have in AUS? What is the different to the factory figures of 170PS (125KW)
Yes mate, 125kw crank is what's quoted. And just quietly if EC can't help there maybe a tuner in OZ that can.

And I have nothing but time so someone on the little blue ball will eventually do so.
 

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LOL. really? Maybe you're drunk on your newly exulted Moderator title? The Australian Porsche Cayman S Manual is $173.447.

I'm here for help and not an argument. Especially from those who are here to protect me from such comments.
Okay.....I'll back off but maybe you are being a little thin skinned?
 

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Hi folks,

I'm hoping the Multiair experts can help me with this. At some stage I will be forging the bottom end to support a turbo upgrade. I have been pointed towards a rod and piston combo offered by PEC Automotive in the UK. Trouble is they have the parts listed for the Abarth 500 which also shares a 1.4 l 16 valve Multiair engine. I have contacted the owner to confirm if they are fine to use the 124 but he's not sure.

Being new to Fiat I need an expert to confirm they are in fact the exact same specification engine. I have looked on Wikipedia and I think they are as there are no defining engine codes I can find between the 124 and the 500.

Here is the link to the products and their specifications;

http://www.steelconrods.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=22_33_125&products_id=1524

Thanks for your help,
Ant.
The Abarth 500 has the T-Jet engine in the UK, not the Multiair. They are quite different!
 
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Being new to Fiat I need an expert to confirm they are in fact the exact same specification engine.
According to fiat500usa.com the 124 uses "different manifolds, oil pan, timing cover, intercooler, and mounts were needed and re-engineered. Even the ignition coils were changed out."

Sounds par for the course for transitioning from transverse to longitudinal placement. I'd dare say there's been no change to the internals, however maybe Greg can chime in as he's pulled one down.

EDIT: For the MA engine. Refer Scenyx's comment above.
 

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And just quietly if EC can't help there maybe a tuner in OZ that can.
Maybe get in touch with:

MTQ Coopers Plains Branch & Service Centre
26 Annie Street, Coopers Plains, QLD 4108
Phone: (07) 3037 3999 - Fax: (07) 3875 1398

They are Dimsport agents, on which the EC product is based.

Not sure if they work with petrol engines though.
 

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Biggest problem will be to find a skilled tuner in AUS.
To do such a big upgrade you need time, money and experience.

So, if you don´t have such a company located near to you, you could only buy an fully modified engine with ECU. Or you wait until somebody comes around with a full installation kit. But that did not happen in the past with 1.4l, so I don´t believe that it will be in the future.
 

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I'll try and address all the questions in this thread in one post, so this may be a bit long.

The Euro 500 Abarth does NOT share the same engine as the 124. It uses the "T-jet" 1.4, NOT the Multiair 1.4. The US 500 Abarth and and all other US Fiats use the Multiair 1.4.

So the question is will the T-Jet bottom end parts fit the Multiair engine? At first glance, it looks like they will as I don't see much difference in the bottom ends. However I have not personally seen the inside of a T-Jet engine and there could be small differences like rod length, or wrist pin offset that would prevent interchanging these parts. You are going to have to ask the vendor about this. They should know as they have the 1.4 Multiair in Europe in the Alfa Mito and some versions of the Giulietta.

How much power will the stock bottom end take? A lot depends on avoiding knock. To keep this simple I am going to reference wheel horsepower since that's the standard mentioned at the start of this thread.

I know of one engine in Las Vegas that was destroyed with only about 185whp. It was a worst case scenario, but it happened. In the particular case it had about the worst possible combination of poorly made mods to get that power, combined with record high temps that day, some other factors and bang.

On the other hand I know of dozens, perhaps a couple hundred of these engines with 220-230whp that have been running for a few years with no issues.

We get about 270whp (about 300 flywheel hp) from this engine with a stock bottom end. However there are a lot of mods needed to make that happen. The exact combination of mods needed for this is listed on our website. Unlike some other vendors, we are not at all secretive about how we do this, so for those who are curious, it may be worth poking around our site.

Could we get more power from our current combo? Yes, and we have, but not too much more. We can get it up around 290, but we haven't made 300whp and certainly no where near the 350whp that Ant mentioned. You could probably get it just up over 300whp with our combo, plus a special tune and an improved exhaust manifold.

Please understand that getting to 350whp with currently available parts will be very difficult. The car's boost sensors are only 3bar. You would probably need to boost above the levels those sensors could see, so you would need to replace them with 3.5 bar or higher sensors. That means all the manifold pressure charts in the ECU would have to be re-indexed, and that's a big job. You would absolutely need a different exhaust manifold, and although I love our 1752 turbo upgrade, I would go with something bigger if my goal was up near 350whp.

To get to 350whp I would probably want to add pistons and rods. We haven't come out with those. I think we eventually will, but right now isn't the time for us to do that.

My point here is really that with this engine, there is a very large gap between 300whp and 350whp. The higher number requires higher rated pressure sensors and an ECU map that's set up for them (which as far as I know doesn't exist as of this writing). It will also require a custom exhaust manifold a non standard turbo upgrade and probably a matching downpipe, plus I would really suggest pistons and rods. So although the amount of work and money needed to get up to 300whp is massive, 350whp is far greater.

RHB's point about getting a Porsche is valid. I think he should have worded it differently, but hey, he is a busy guy. Now I don't know what cars cost in Australia, and I don't really like Porsches. I can say that in the US building a 350whp 124 with the matching suspension and brake upgrades will likely cost over 20k (no, I didn't just add that stuff up, that's a very rough guess). Add that to the price of a 124 Abarth and it's not that far off the cost of an Alfa 4C which is a far more capable performance car. It's the same weight and can be brought to 300whp easily and even 360-400hp isn't unrealistic.

I also want to point out that 270whp in a 2500 pound car is a lot. Even the 300K Factory rally 124 "only" has about that amount.

Greg
 

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If it costs USD$20k it will cost AUD$40k to get in done in Aus. Then maybe another AUD$10 resolving all of the peripheral issues that 350hp will show up. So you've just spent the cost of the Abarth on the Abarth. That's still slightly cheaper than buying a 4C here, but not by much. But if you want the indisputed fastest 124 in the country, and you have the coin.....

You'd want to be tracking though, because there'd be no roads in Australia where you could legally hold the throttle wide open for more than about 4 seconds :(
 

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I wasn't even thinking of the peripheral issues. I am fairly sure that with coolers the trans and diff will handle 350rwhp, but I'm not absolutely sure. Of course it will need another clutch, but what about the driveshaft and its connection points? What about the axles? This whole thing could get a lot more expensive really quickly. That's partly why I am a fan of the 300 flywheel horsepower conversion. It's largely a known quantity, and while all of the needed components are not out yet for the 124, it's a certainty that they will be.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Maybe get in touch with:

MTQ Coopers Plains Branch & Service Centre
26 Annie Street, Coopers Plains, QLD 4108
Phone: (07) 3037 3999 - Fax: (07) 3875 1398

They are Dimsport agents, on which the EC product is based.

Not sure if they work with petrol engines though.
Well that might be an absolute stroke of luck. Thanks Pete!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Greg, thank you very much for the detailed responses also. Very helpful.

I have two build plan options in mind, and please remember I stated earlier my goals were over 300rwhp and under 350rwhp. Anywhere in between that is driveable, reliable and the most cost effective way will be the I'll go with this.

I would love a 4C, but once again over $100K delivered and no manual option here. I collated the costs for the total build (wheels, rubber, brakes, suspension, bracing, roll bar, engine, turbo, intake, exhaust, fueling and finally tuning and it can be done for $25K AU which is a far cry from a Porsche, 4C or anything with this platform. So I see this as winning! Sorry if you don't agree.

Greg can I please ask whether you stopped at 300hp with your set-up because of maxing something out, such as as you stated before the boost sensors? Or even fueling or turbo etc? Or if you were just preserving the the engine internals at this stage?

Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
If it costs USD$20k it will cost AUD$40k to get in done in Aus. Then maybe another AUD$10 resolving all of the peripheral issues that 350hp will show up. So you've just spent the cost of the Abarth on the Abarth. That's still slightly cheaper than buying a 4C here, but not by much. But if you want the indisputed fastest 124 in the country, and you have the coin.....

You'd want to be tracking though, because there'd be no roads in Australia where you could legally hold the throttle wide open for more than about 4 seconds :(
Yes mate, plan on tracking a lot. I very lucky to live in central Brisbane so frequent time attack events at both Lakeside and Queensland Raceways. Both completely different circuits and I'm sure the 124 will love both. Plus I love drag racing too and we have Willowbank for that. Plus I want to try a hill climb series as well which are local.
 

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Yes mate, plan on tracking a lot. I very lucky to live in central Brisbane so frequent time attack events at both Lakeside and Queensland Raceways. Both completely different circuits and I'm sure the 124 will love both. Plus I love drag racing too and we have Willowbank for that. Plus I hwant to try a hill climb series as well which are local.
Well....now I know why you want 350hp LOL.

Yes Lakeside and Qld Raceways are very different. Lakeside is a great circuit with an awesome history, but it's very unforgiving when you screw up. I used to get my RS2000 around it back in the early 80s in around 1:08 if my memory serves me correctly. Ive had a few friends have some big offs on that circuit in cars and on bikes. A friend slid 100m on his ass down the back straight after coming off under the bridge...wearing good quality leathers fortunately. His Ducati burned and was scrap :(
 

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Well....now I know why you want 350hp LOL.

Yes Lakeside and Qld Raceways are very different. Lakeside is a great circuit with an awesome history, but it's very unforgiving when you screw up. I used to get my RS2000 around it back in the early 80s in around 1:08 if my memory serves me correctly. Ive had a few friends have some big offs on that circuit in cars and on bikes. A friend slid 100m on his ass down the back straight after coming off under the bridge...wearing good quality leathers fortunately. His Ducati burned and was scrap :(
That's a cracking time :D you must have been screaming around there back then! And yes it's still a widow maker unfortunately with a fatality more often than anyone would like. My last project car was a lightweight FWD stage 3+ turbo hatchback which almost put me in the wall a couple of times there.
 
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