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I have said many times before that a tuned Fiat 124, or any tuned car with this ECU will not perform properly on a dyno. I have stated that the wheel speed sensors will see a difference in speeds between the front and rear wheels and this will cause the ECU to pull back power. Even on most all wheel drive dynos this happens because the belts connecting the rollers allow for some slippage.

Some people have trouble believing this, which is fine, although it irks me that another vendor who should know better has been making statements on a Miata forum claiming that this isn't true, and even implies that I am making it up.

These cars DO pull power when they detect they are on a dyno. Now that we have a dyno with hydraulically linked and computer synced rollers, we can prove it. With the rollers synced, the car can NOT detect that it's on a dyno, so we can compare that to a dyno pull on the same dyno with the rear rollers only.

I made a video showing this. Note that the point of this video is not to show power of a specific product. It has a testing tune on it, not a production tune, meaning it's not Phase1, and it's not the upcoming Phase 2. It also has an intake and intercooler. The point of this video is to show that these cars do pull power if run on a conventional dyno.


Greg
 

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Wow - Impressive and clearly convinces me that if you want actual final numbers, you need equiptment like the one in the video. Thanks for taking the time to share this.

I understand you can do before and after on a more traditonal dyno if looking for the net difference but if you want to know what you truly have seems like this is what's needed for these "Newer" Cars.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Wow - Impressive and clearly convinces me that if you want actual final numbers, you need equiptment like the one in the video. Thanks for taking the time to share this.
Thanks for watching. You might be the first one to see it.

I understand you can do before and after on a more traditonal dyno if looking for the net difference but if you want to know what you truly have seems like this is what's needed for these "Newer" Cars.
No, actually you can't. You won't see the difference because the hotter the tune, the more the ECU pulls it back. That's why I pointed out that in the second run the ECU pulled power back to near stock levels. A traditional dyno is pretty close to useless for measuring horsepower on a tuned and modded 124.

Greg
 

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Fascinating and revealing test. What do they have to gain by programming this into the ecu?
 

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I don't think it is necessarily to 'trick' dynomometers, but the fact that the front of the car isn't moving but the rear is: the ECU knows this. The christmas tree on the dash is basically saying to the driver 'something is wrong!' and thus reduces power to prevent any potential damage until it can be resolved.

Les complex (relative term) cars with limited wheel sensors on the non-driven wheels could probably care less.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Fascinating and revealing test. What do they have to gain by programming this into the ecu?
Thanks, and that's a great question. I am not sure I can answer it fully, but I'll do my best.

Why are these ECUs set up this way? I am not sure. I do know that some people at Fiat don't like performance, racing, or the aftermarket, thus they intentionally make things difficult. Also, as Joseph very astutely pointed out, VW used this to their advantage in emission tests. Whether they did this intentionally or not, I don't know. (also, some people at Fiat/Chrysler really do like aftermarket stuff, the former head of the SRT division runs our tune!)

It's also very possible, that this isn't really intentional and that it's just a byproduct of the ABS and ESC programming. What the ECU actually thinks is happening is a fault in the ABS-ESC system, so limiting power in that situation makes sense. It could be that's the entire purpose, but it happens to limit power on a dyno.

In any case, what's important here is that the ECU DOES pull power on a dyno, regardless of what anyone else may have claimed.

Greg
 

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It not only brings into question tunes and the true numbers but all other performance products that relate to gains in power. Intakes, exhaust, etc claims by other manufactures.

What a great tool for you guys. R&D, competive analysis, marketing, etc. to be able to post a video showing results on each mod, or a combination of mods is a big deal.

Also would offer an answer to “greater than the sum of its parts” vs “less than the sum”. Say you have a tune and add a V4, does the percentage gain remain the same, so the hp gain goes up, or does the hp gain stay the same and the percentage go down.

Then things like if I do X, Y, and Z what is my true gain.

You just need to develope your own full exhaust system to have it all. Maybe a partnership? Or an exclusive.

I have read those issues/claims on the Miata forum, so I know what you are referring to.

Great stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
It not only brings into question tunes and the true numbers but all other performance products that relate to gains in power. Intakes, exhaust, etc claims by other manufactures.
It certainly does. Of course we used Auterra, so this specific issue wasn't a factor for us, but the dyno is much more accurate and reads lower than Auterra so we will have to remeasure and republish everything. It's going to take some time. The good news is that all of our products have legitimate gains, and even with lower numbers, they are dramatic.

What a great tool for you guys. R&D, competive analysis, marketing, etc. to be able to post a video showing results on each mod, or a combination of mods is a big deal.
We think so too, and that's exactly what we plan to do.

Also would offer an answer to “greater than the sum of its parts” vs “less than the sum”. Say you have a tune and add a V4, does the percentage gain remain the same, so the hp gain goes up, or does the hp gain stay the same and the percentage go down.
That's a great point. We will do that with our own stuff, but testing every possible combo would be incredibly difficult. So far, most of our 124 work on the dyno has been to develop our Phase 2 tune. We have also put our V4 intake through the ringer. I am happy to report that the V4 is really good. We found that it's as good as NO intake at all, meaning no intake, the hood open, and a fan blowing in that are to keep it cool. Even that doesn't beat the V4.

Then things like if I do X, Y, and Z what is my true gain.
We will do that. For example, Tune, V4, Intercooler will be a common dyno theme.

You just need to develope your own full exhaust system to have it all. Maybe a partnership? Or an exclusive.
We have though about doing an exhaust, but I think the products already on the market are pretty good (for the most part), so we probably won't.

I have read those issues/claims on the Miata forum, so I know what you are referring to.
It does bother me that people who have no idea what they are talking about try to discredit me on a forum where I can't post and defend myself. The fact that it's a competing vendor doing this to try and gain a competitive advantage is quite annoying. (note: since I am a vendor I would have to pay to post on a Miata forum, but it's not worth it because I don't have Miata stuff to sell, hence I can't respond there)

Great stuff.
Thanks!

Greg
 

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I appreciate the investment and effort taken to back up performance claims with hard data. I raced Formula Cars for years, and there is no substitute for controlled testing.
 

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Fascinating and revealing test. What do they have to gain by programming this into the ecu?
It’s the ESC system. Cars that can fully disable ESC, like the SRTs, do not experience this issue on the dyno.
 

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Ok Ok Ok.....what is this story maker up too? @Greg lol

Mahalo sir for taking the time to post this video. That looks like some cool equipment. It's a shame there are haters out there who want to discredit your profession. (because ultimately thats they are attacking...imho) As you well know...people tend to remember the mistakes not the successes. Why I state that? Because it seems to me you have gone out of your way to prove that you have always been forthright with your knowledge and information. To avoid the "remember the mistakes" !

It wasn't necessary on this forum for you to do that. As I'm sure all those on this forum, for any amount have time, have seen your helpfulness, knowledge and general great attitude towards fellow forum members.

Just yesterday I was thinking while I was wrenching on Wendi...IDK how @Greg finds the time to post on this Forum...(I bet there are a few other forums he post on too) do his job, and enjoy his toys. LOL

So in short...yeah man! your name is good here...and if any Hater try to discredit you...I get some local braddahs..that will give dat fool some cracks!

Mahalo sir and continue to keep up the good work! ohhh and there are some people on this forum that really want a Phase 2 tune in there stocking this year....lol
 

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Hey Greg,

Are you going to offer custom dyno tuning on your dyno?
Do you think you'd be able to squeeze out some extra power with a dyno tune over the off the shelf ED tunes?
Do you offer installation of parts at the shop?

I'm a little apprehensive to try to tackle the intercooler install myself, and I wondered if it would be an option to come down there and have you guys install an intercooler and tune the car.
 

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Hey Greg,

Are you going to offer custom dyno tuning on your dyno?
Do you think you'd be able to squeeze out some extra power with a dyno tune over the off the shelf ED tunes?
Do you offer installation of parts at the shop?

I'm a little apprehensive to try to tackle the intercooler install myself, and I wondered if it would be an option to come down there and have you guys install an intercooler and tune the car.
I had the same thought, but adding the sway bars as well. That front one does not look easy.

Heck all the hard stuff plus the tune. intercooler,, sways, and maybe this new turbo they are working on.

Though it sounds like a very expensive ticket, or 10, on the way home!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The front bar is not easy, the springs are not too bad. All the engine stuff is pretty easy, the intercooler is the toughest and it's just not that bad. I think it's the number of steps you can see in extreme's write up that looks intimidating. What's hard to see is how easy all the steps are.

We may offer installation at our Tulsa shop. I'll talk about that later.

Greg
 

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This is very cool and I imagine it will quite beneficial in your work on Tuning. As a customer, it will help us know approximately what our cars would be with a given set of mods. a V4 will do this, Phase 1 this, Phase 2 this and the intercooler this. Also the possible combinations, for example mine with V4 and Phase 1 together. I see this as a great selling point for your products!!
 

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I have said many times before that a tuned Fiat 124, or any tuned car with this ECU will not perform properly on a dyno. I have stated that the wheel speed sensors will see a difference in speeds between the front and rear wheels and this will cause the ECU to pull back power. Even on most all wheel drive dynos this happens because the belts connecting the rollers allow for some slippage.

Some people have trouble believing this, which is fine, although it irks me that another vendor who should know better has been making statements on a Miata forum claiming that this isn't true, and even implies that I am making it up.

These cars DO pull power when they detect they are on a dyno. Now that we have a dyno with hydraulically linked and computer synced rollers, we can prove it. With the rollers synced, the car can NOT detect that it's on a dyno, so we can compare that to a dyno pull on the same dyno with the rear rollers only.

I made a video showing this. Note that the point of this video is not to show power of a specific product. It has a testing tune on it, not a production tune, meaning it's not Phase1, and it's not the upcoming Phase 2. It also has an intake and intercooler. The point of this video is to show that these cars do pull power if run on a conventional dyno.


Greg
So with the ECU, we're not able to dyno the 124 Spider? We just tune it using either the Direct Tuning or Tuning System?
 

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Not intending a tune, however......read this thread and WOW ! Well Done Greg, my mind has been opened, the toolbox in my head benefits, Cheers
ron
 
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