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Okay Federico, you have set the bait and I am daft enough to bite....."WHAT" !
The World knows that manufacturers cut corners and buy in cheap products or steal from parts bin to produce a model that they can shift and hopefully profit from. Standard setting are there to comply with the law and do "just enough" to make a competitive vehicle in whatever market sector they compete in. In the case of "Our" car, the Fiat 124 Spider cries out for Modification and updating in an awful lot of areas. For anyone who is not a driving enthusiast it may be fine to understeer, have weak brakes, basic springs and turbo lag, to name just some areas that need attention in most cars, so most enthusiasts, not just those in the USA, research on forums like this one and 21st Century 124 Spider, consider and list what mods would rock their boat and proceed to enhance their driving experience, not because they have money to burn. I am not about to tell you what you should do, just refer you to my own "Brexit Mods" thread and the many other upgrade threads that have put the biggest grin on the most faces or have made owners such as myself feel safe when I brake, go into a bend or press down the accelerator.
One more thing....Just consider this....If we didn't have our toys to play with we would be forced to watch TV, decorate the house and stand outside of shops with shopping bags full of crap whilst "The Boss" decides what shoes to add to her collection next, plus.....All those Poor Motor Trade Specialists, Suppliers and Drivers who would go out of business and be mourned by us.....The Multijet 1.4 was best small engine 2010 but things move on., Cheers
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This was my first turbo, and now have a second. I have a few thoughts:

I don’t think there’s anything you can do about the turbo kicking in later in a stock vehicle. Indeed, this can be desirable - for general smooth driving, keep the boost low and use fewer gasolies. The vast majority of people won’t notice the difference.

Conversely, it isn’t as economical to drive as one would think - better than naturally aspirated, but it is still superseded by a hybrid or electric. As such, it doesn’t have much future, especially with the insanity in Europe regarding some abstract c02 units.

in the US, turbos will have a problem, since they are generally mated to smaller displacement - no one will buy a 2.5 turbo over a 3.5 naturally aspirated, if it’s available. But attitudes are changing on that.

[the second turbo I have is a ecoboost 3.5 twin turbo v6 in a 5600lb vehicle that gives the spider a run for its money at a stop light - the vehicle should (sic) be a v8 and probably why it doesn’t sell as well - but it’s in the f150, and importantly, the GT and Raptor - so demonstrates its capability].
 

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Okay Federico, you have set the bait and I am daft enough to bite....."WHAT" !
I am not about to tell you what you should do, just refer you to my own "Brexit Mods" thread and the many other upgrade threads that have put the biggest grin on the most faces or have made owners such as myself feel safe when I brake, go into a bend or press down the accelerator.
One more thing....Just consider this....If we didn't have our toys to play with we would be forced to watch TV, decorate the house and stand outside of shops with shopping bags full of crap whilst "The Boss" decides what shoes to add to her collection next, plus.....All those Poor Motor Trade Specialists, Suppliers and Drivers who would go out of business and be mourned by us.....The Multijet 1.4 was best small engine 2010 but things move on., Cheers
ron
You may have misinterpreted my message. I did not want to (arrogantly) tell you 'your mods are useless' but rather, if we are talking about power production alone, you can achieve a lot just pushing the stock components, being them cheap or less cheap. Everyone should of course have his or her own style, diversity is always a good thing, so if John Doe prefers to have the turbo from a lorry and the intercooler from a GTR-34, so be it. My point was, since we are arguing about the power output of this engine, achieving more HPs it is not anything to worry about.

I don’t think there’s anything you can do about the turbo kicking in later in a stock vehicle. Indeed, this can be desirable - for general smooth driving, keep the boost low and use fewer gasolies. The vast majority of people won’t notice the difference.

Conversely, it isn’t as economical to drive as one would think - better than naturally aspirated, but it is still superseded by a hybrid or electric. As such, it doesn’t have much future, especially with the insanity in Europe regarding some abstract c02 units.
In my experience it is actually the opposite, turbo engines, especially the smaller ones, produce less co2 than their NA counterparts. They use less fuel and manage to have the same power output although the inferior displacement. Less fuel used = less co2 produced. In fact, the latest trend in Europe is to build small turbo engines with high power outputs. Fiat has recently developed and put into production a 1.0 three cylinders unit which can already produce 120hp stock. Hybrids are instead mostly based on NAs and that is because, as far as I know, it is easier to match the power delivery of an electrical engine with the one of a naturally aspirated than a turbo one.

in the US, turbos will have a problem, since they are generally mated to smaller displacement - no one will buy a 2.5 turbo over a 3.5 naturally aspirated, if it’s available. But attitudes are changing on that.
That is typically American, I would say! :LOL: For us Italians would be the opposite, choosing the smaller engine with a balanced power output. This culture comes mainly from the way our insurance world works, where rates are calculated on how big an engine is and the road tax is calculated on how much the car is powerful, with quite the increase / penalty on cars over 300hp.
 

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An easy stereotype to believe. However, I'm in the US and am very happy with the 2.0L turbo in my Alfa Romeo. It's more of a low-end torquer than a high-rev screamer, and mates well with the car's (heresy, I know) 8-speed automatic transmission. It's my fourth turbo engine (the previous three were Volvos). Really a good example of having one's cake and eating it, too; I enjoy lively performance with good fuel economy.

Chinese consumers apparently prefer not to have 3-cylinder engines (link below). Maybe a prestige thing? Kind of like the Tata Nano, which many Indians rejected because they thought it labeled them as being cheap.

 

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An easy stereotype to believe. However, I'm in the US and am very happy with the 2.0L turbo in my Alfa Romeo. It's more of a low-end torquer than a high-rev screamer, and mates well with the car's (heresy, I know) 8-speed automatic transmission. It's my fourth turbo engine (the previous three were Volvos). Really a good example of having one's cake and eating it, too; I enjoy lively performance with good fuel economy.

Chinese consumers apparently prefer not to have 3-cylinder engines (link below). Maybe a prestige thing? Kind of like the Tata Nano, which many Indians rejected because they thought it labeled them as being cheap.

I think you can get Rehab now if you own a Sports Car with automatic gearbox............ ?
 

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(heresy, I know) 8-speed automatic transmission.
Not at all. Honestly I prefer an automatic gearbox in a performance car. Think that the first 124 I have driven, had the automatic, and I enjoyed more than the manual, because it was quick enough to have fun and I because had found a way to make the record monza make a pop/bang with that small delay occurring when changing gear.

Chinese consumers apparently prefer not to have 3-cylinder engines...

Sorry you lost me at Chinese consumers. :LOL:
 

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I think you can get Rehab now if you own a Sports Car with automatic gearbox............ ?
Anyone who thinks a Giulia is a sports car probably needs some form of therapy.

Not at all. Honestly I prefer an automatic gearbox in a performance car. Think that the first 124 I have driven, had the automatic, and I enjoyed more than the manual, because it was quick enough to have fun and I because had found a way to make the record Monza make a pop/bang with that small delay occurring when changing gear.
I enjoy the driving involvement of a manual. Having cars with one of each available offers a choice.

Sorry you lost me at Chinese consumers.
While you can ridicule their taste, their buying power is undisputable (to the extent that the coronavirus may have an impact on the global economy).
 
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Jeez - I may start driving up to you for servicing. Last time I went for warranty work, they waited until I'd made the appointment, driven out there, stood in line to sign in, explained the issues (again), and only then decided to tell me they didn't have anyone qualified to work on the 124.
I have a very good relationship with my support team. I fought a battle for two years to lay hands on a Record Monza exhaust for my vehicle, and the Service Manager was with me every step of the way... including being part of the paper letter process sent to Fiat corporate.... which resulted in me being put in connection with the Fiat Division Manager of Customer Support (Italy), who lit the appropriate fires to make it happen. And then because of the long time we'd fought to get it, when it arrived I paid dealer cost and zero installation fee. Here's a photo of the cake ceremony I had with the Manager (I'm the old fart on the left), and then shared the cake with the mechanics working in the serice bays that morning. Great folks.

(I figured having the cake made was a small cost compared to what the MRSP and installation could have set me back). It's things like this that cement a good team relationship. Besides, it was a fun thing to do...

74911
 

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I have a very good relationship with my support team. I fought a battle for two years to lay hands on a Record Monza exhaust for my vehicle, and the Service Manager was with me every step of the way... including being part of the paper letter process sent to Fiat corporate.... which resulted in me being put in connection with the Fiat Division Manager of Customer Support (Italy), who lit the appropriate fires to make it happen. And then because of the long time we'd fought to get it, when it arrived I paid dealer cost and zero installation fee. Here's a photo of the cake ceremony I had with the Manager (I'm the old fart on the left), and then shared the cake with the mechanics working in the serice bays that morning. Great folks.

(I figured having the cake made was a small cost compared to what the MRSP and installation could have set me back). It's things like this that cement a good team relationship. Besides, it was a fun thing to do...
Very nice story. I'm all for fun. Where's your "old fart" nametag?
 

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Not at all. Honestly I prefer an automatic gearbox in a performance car. Think that the first 124 I have driven, had the automatic, and I enjoyed more than the manual, because it was quick enough to have fun and I because had found a way to make the record monza make a pop/bang with that small delay occurring when changing gear.



Sorry you lost me at Chinese consumers. :LOL:
Anyone who thinks a Giulia is a sports car probably needs some form of therapy.

I enjoy the driving involvement of a manual. Having cars with one of each available offers a choice.

While you can ridicule their taste, their buying power is undisputable (to the extent that the coronavirus may have an impact on the global economy).
My mistake on the Alfa Giulia 2L turbo Chipshot...silly me thought You thought it was a sports car..I didn't like to say I thought it was a compact exec.......The Chinese answer is good though.......
The UK Daily Telegraph says this, NOT ME....Nano- aimed at poor people in India and China looking to buy a first car, people who previously climbed onto battered scooters along with entire family, a pig and a few geese!
still.....it doesn't have an auto gearbox and it must be Sporting to handle that lot....?
 

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I have a very good relationship with my support team. I fought a battle for two years to lay hands on a Record Monza exhaust for my vehicle, and the Service Manager was with me every step of the way... including being part of the paper letter process sent to Fiat corporate.... which resulted in me being put in connection with the Fiat Division Manager of Customer Support (Italy), who lit the appropriate fires to make it happen. And then because of the long time we'd fought to get it, when it arrived I paid dealer cost and zero installation fee. Here's a photo of the cake ceremony I had with the Manager (I'm the old fart on the left), and then shared the cake with the mechanics working in the serice bays that morning. Great folks.

(I figured having the cake made was a small cost compared to what the MRSP and installation could have set me back). It's things like this that cement a good team relationship. Besides, it was a fun thing to do...

View attachment 74911
Like done...happy now ! :rolleyes:
 

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While you can ridicule their taste, their buying power is undisputable (to the extent that the coronavirus may have an impact on the global economy).
Not necessarily their taste, but rather their knowledge / experience with cars. They almost only buy luxury cars and what they produce it is a copy of European and American brands but with terrible quality standards. Surely their preference might indeed mean more sales, but I doubt that their taste would have any influence on what our industry is developing and producing right now. In the future, who knows.

The coronavirus will surely have to some extents impacts on the global economy, but this is topic too complex to discuss on a 124 spider forum.
 

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Not necessarily their taste, but rather their knowledge / experience with cars. They almost only buy luxury cars and what they produce it is a copy of European and American brands but with terrible quality standards. Surely their preference might indeed mean more sales, but I doubt that their taste would have any influence on what our industry is developing and producing right now. In the future, who knows.
Manufacturers who fail to cater to the tastes of a market as large as China's will be awarded appropriately. In other words, the old adage "the customer is always right".
 

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My mistake on the Alfa Giulia 2L turbo Chipshot...silly me thought You thought it was a sports car..I didn't like to say I thought it was a compact exec.......
Can we settle on sports sedan? The Giulia drives nicely. I enjoy having sports car attributes in an all-wheel-drive four-door.

As stated previously in this forum, I had plans to acquire a Spider three years ago that didn't work out. The Giulia proved an acceptable answer. I'm leaving less to chance this time around.
 

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In my experience it is actually the opposite, turbo engines, especially the smaller ones, produce less co2 than their NA counterparts. They use less fuel and manage to have the same power output although the inferior displacement. Less fuel used = less co2 produced.


and yet both the Miata and the Fiat have very similar mpg (co2/km directly correlates with mpg, so is a stupid unit of measurement). A gallon of gas has the same amount of energy regardless of the engine it’s going into. A turbo engine is marginally more efficient, but when an engine is running at its best efficiency, it doesn’t matter if it’s turbo or not, they will use the same amount of fuel (Engines of equivalent capability).

the key is when a turbo is not on boost: comparing Miata and Fiat, you have a 2.0 vs a 1.4. A smaller displacement uses less fuel, but both engines are way out of their best efficiency (loaded) area. Side note; this is why big v8 engines have cylinder shutdown. Put the turbo on boost, and it’s drinking more gasoline than the 2.0 (Depending boost level).

the only way for the 1.3 turbo to be better is to keep it off boost. and also why mpg ratings for turbo vs non turbo engines become almost meaningless: just like 0-60 times, it’s a measure for a general relative comparison but tells you little. The 1.3 will be geared for the car weight to keep it off boost as much as possible in cruising situations. Which is probably why it would not work in a 124 since the gearing, most likely would need to change, or just doesn’t work in that car - it would experience higher mpg than the 1.4.

Electric is the only way to go - and I really don’t care about meaningless co2. You can put a big-*** motor in any given car and it has a fairly high efficiency at all speeds. Which is why electric beats gas in energy consumption. The vast majority of gas powered cars run in a very low efficiency range most of the time (And they ain’t that efficient to start with, turbo or non turbo).
 

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the only way for the 1.3 turbo to be better is to keep it off boost. and also why mpg ratings for turbo vs non turbo engines become almost meaningless: just like 0-60 times, it’s a measure for a general relative comparison but tells you little. The 1.3 will be geared for the car weight to keep it off boost as much as possible in cruising situations. Which is probably why it would not work in a 124 since the gearing, most likely would need to change, or just doesn’t work in that car - it would experience higher mpg than the 1.4.
Fiat does not have an in-house gearbox for a longitudinal engine. All engines in Fiat cars are mounted in a transverse position.

That being said the 1.3T is a more modern, more efficient engine which will possibly equip all future Fiat cars along with the 1.0T and other engines you do not have in the USA such as the 1.2 NA, which is mounted on all small city-cars.
 

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Fiat does not have an in-house gearbox for a longitudinal engine. All engines in Fiat cars are mounted in a transverse position.

That being said the 1.3T is a more modern, more efficient engine which will possibly equip all future Fiat cars along with the 1.0T and other engines you do not have in the USA such as the 1.2 NA, which is mounted on all small city-cars.
Which is all not relevant to the 124 and explains why it’s dead.

Regardless, gasoline engines are horribly inefficient. The 1.3 turbo is still inefficient ( increasing efficiency by an extremely generous 10% while worth it from an r&d perspective is of little use to the consumer, with an absolute efficiency of maybe 2%, hitting diminishing returns).

gasoline engines will be around a long time, but eurogovs are dictating they go away, with no practical alternative.
 

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Which is all not relevant to the 124 and explains why it’s dead.
We have already treated the reasons why the 124 has ended its short life. Production and Shipping costs were too high in comparison with the margin they had from the sales. And the sales were quite low, so they backed off from the agreement with Mazda and ended the production.

Regardless, gasoline engines are horribly inefficient. The 1.3 turbo is still inefficient ( increasing efficiency by an extremely generous 10% while worth it from an r&d perspective is of little use to the consumer, with an absolute efficiency of maybe 2%, hitting diminishing returns).

Gasoline engines will be around a long time, but eurogovs are dictating they go away, with no practical alternative.
All the manufacturers have already the updates to make their engines compliant with the new EU emission standards, but why giving them out already? It is part of their marketing strategy. The 1.3T will be no different I imagine.

EU Governments are strictly trying to find ways to reduce our carbon footprint and the usage of oil, hence the creation and constant update of the 'Euro' standard for road vehicle emissions. They are just one of the many measures used to counter the pollution.

I understand an American's point of view, thinking that it is just nonsense, USA did not even adhere to the Kyoto pact and decides its own rules for carbon emissions. Even if you do not agree with the US government positions, surely you do not feel the same pressure as the average EU citizen.

Just to give you a quick fact, US population is roughly 320 million, whereas EU's population is roughly 507. Well the carbon footprint of USA is almost DOUBLE the one of the EU. This involves many factors, not just car emissions of course, but it is however very relevant.

Climate change is real, we have to act fast, and If electric is the only way to go, so be it. And maybe the 124 will live again as an electric car!
 

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There are plenty of transmissions available for purchase, and FCA has a history of using them, so a lack of an in-house gearbox is not in itself fatal.

Has production in fact ended, meaning all 2020 Spiders have already been built? If so, I'm curious what source of information confirms that.

While I would not be averse to an electric spider, its driving characteristics would needs to imbue the sportiness inherent in the model. That means more than ultra-low zero-to-sixty times.

Yup, we have bigger homes, drive more miles (or kilometers) each year, and make less use of public transportation. And people like me hop in planes and fly all over the world, often boarding cruise ships. I hope my body absorbs some carbon after it is buried.
 
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