Fiat 124 Spider Forum banner
1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
554 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I find it interesting to parallel the availability of 124 modification parts to those of the A500.

With all this talk of exhaust upgrades I have yet to see any talk of a "sports" catalytic converters - something like 200 cells, high flow.

Any reason why ?? is this illegal (or difficult to pass) in the US ?? Or a case of "watch this space"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Joseph, I wonder the same thing actually. I my personal experience with heavily modified late model VW and Audi turbocharged cars, the down pipe with high flow cat is the first modification people do which brings more proven power, early turbo spool and reduced turbo temps than a cat back system.

The larger diameter straight off the turbo allows the exhaust temps to cool much faster with the increased volume, and as mentioned previously increased spool time considerably. My last project which had small frame factory hybrid Borg Warner benefited hugely by a 4" expansion chamber right off the turbo (ceramic coated also) into a 3" high-flow cat. If you have the room to do so I highly recommend this set up.

There are plenty of very good and legal high-flow cats on the market such as Magnaflow which I used on my last build that can easily be incorporated into a custom larger diameter DP.

Cheers.
 

·
124 Spider Vendor
Joined
·
1,176 Posts
Still a new car guys....it takes time.

WE have a highflow cat in testing. It flows better, it makes turbo spool earlier. But it flows so fast past the sensors it throws a code for cat efficiency. I have talked with some of the providers of ECU reflash about whether they yet have ability to prevent that second sensor code for cat efficiency. As soon as one of them says they can do it, likely we will move forward on the highflow converter and recommend the ECU solution that is available that can handle it. I asked Greg at EC, but last I heard it seemed they did not yet have that ability.
 

·
124 Spider Vendor
Joined
·
1,176 Posts
Have you tried a spacer for the o2 sensor Brian? May help your with your code issue.
Yes, playing with spacer and mini-cat in the spacer to determine if we can find plumbing solution to the code that otherwise comes with use of highflow cat.

I agree that simple is better...if it works.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
554 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I suppose my surprise stems from the fact that the 1.4 MA is well known by now and there are many sports cats available for this motor ......... like those for the A500.

I would have thought that it would have been a case of "re-plumbing" a A500 sports cat solution to the 124. But concede that the exhaust piping is all new in the 124.

Greg - if and when you have a sports cat available would it be integrated into your cross pipe ?? That would be an excellent solution
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
From my experience with the 500 Abarth, going HF cat causes a P0420 code, then when you use a big daddies mil eliminator or vibrant 02 sensor restrictor, you get code p0139 and p0141. You can clear the codes, but eventually they come back. I reached out to many tuners about disabling the secondary 02 sensor and they say it can be done, but won't due to emission regulations.
 

·
124 Spider Vendor
Joined
·
1,176 Posts
Trying the plumbing solution here of the big daddies mini-cat in the extender...with angle extender. No codes so far with big V8 cat we are testing. More miles needed, including full throttle race miles. It will be a while before we can say it works. Also working on that backup plan second route of avoiding code using the ECU reflash.
 

·
124 Spider Vendor
Joined
·
1,176 Posts
You might guess that the highflow stuff might make the car go lean....but it is normal when not under load, and safely rich under full load. We are certainly leaving power on the table with rich condition under load, makes me hungry for proper ECU solution that gives us full control to tune the result. Staying in touch with several of the companies already offering or soon to be offering ECU clones and reflashes, looking forward to one of these giving us the control we want to optimize results on pump gas.

As the car evolves and evolves it might end up on E85 like several of my other toys. Picture and video of our 2007 Supercharged wide bodied and flat bottomed NC Miata below eating the Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca front straight in 10 seconds on E85. It can do hour long sessions eating Corvettes and Porsches and just about everything while the coolant temp does not budge over 209F....boosted cars love that E85, it's the cheapest race gas!


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
I'm also waiting for a good tune to come out. Once a consensus is made on a good one, I'll be buying it.

I can't wait to see all the E85 numbers start pouring in. I've seen with the 500 Abarths, you can simply throw a new set of injectors in and fill up the tank with E85 and you're good. Since it's a wideband car, it knows how to compensate. Obviously you won't get the kind of gains that you would from a full tune though. I've heard the 124 Spider fuel pumps have seen some failures on E85, so I think I'm going to wait it out and see if that ends up being a problem. My big turbo STi gained 150whp just by switching to e85 (and supporting mods). You're right, they love the stuff.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
3,662 Posts
Greg - if and when you have a sports cat available would it be integrated into your cross pipe ?? That would be an excellent solution
We don't sell our cross pipe, it was a one off for testing purposes only. At this time I don't plan to make exhaust components for the 124. I can't say I won't ever do that, but it's not on our projects list. I think there are several good choices out there, and I am sure there are more to come.

In regards to your comments about the choices on the 500 Abarth, that's largely a function of time. The 124 is new, the 500 Abarth came to the US in 2012. It was about a year or two before the really good choices for hi-flow cats showed up for the 500, those two being SuperSprint and El Gato.

Greg
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
3,662 Posts
From my experience with the 500 Abarth, going HF cat causes a P0420 code, then when you use a big daddies mil eliminator or vibrant 02 sensor restrictor, you get code p0139 and p0141. You can clear the codes, but eventually they come back. I reached out to many tuners about disabling the secondary 02 sensor and they say it can be done, but won't due to emission regulations.
First of all, we do offer a fix for hi-flow cat related CELs, and for de-cats on our 500 Abarth tunes, but not on the 124, not yet.

I feel a need to explain this. First of all, we don't shut off the second O2 sensor. I know a lot of tuners do that, but we at EC feel it's irresponsible and sloppy on a street car. That sensor is used not only to check the functionality of the cat, it also catches fueling problems that wouldn't otherwise be caught until it's too late.

We approach this problem a little differently for street applications. We actually retune the ECU so that it recognizes the new values from the hi-flow cat as normal. This prevents the light from coming on unless something else is wrong. In my view, this is a much better way to do it because it preserves the functionality of the car's CEL system.

So why haven't we released this for the 124, when we did for the 500? It's because there are no hi-flow cats on the market for the 124. I am sure there will be soon, but until then, we have no way of testing one of these products to get the measurements needed to know what changes need to be made to extinguish that light. Sure, we could just shut off the light, but that's not really how we roll.

Greg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
554 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
That is interesting

A 200 cell cat is a very common mod on the Euro A500 with the 1.4 TBi and incidences of CEL are rare. And those who delete the cat completely get away with "emulators" (mini cats)
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
3,662 Posts
That is interesting

A 200 cell cat is a very common mod on the Euro A500 with the 1.4 TBi and incidences of CEL are rare. And those who delete the cat completely get away with "emulators" (mini cats)
Yes, but that's not the case with our engines. Remember the Euro 500 Abarth has a Bosch ECU, which is totally different than the Magneti Marelli unit in our 124s and US 500s.

Greg
 

·
124 Spider Vendor
Joined
·
1,176 Posts
First of all, we do offer a fix for hi-flow cat related CELs, and for de-cats on our 500 Abarth tunes, but not on the 124, not yet.

I feel a need to explain this. First of all, we don't shut off the second O2 sensor. I know a lot of tuners do that, but we at EC feel it's irresponsible and sloppy on a street car. That sensor is used not only to check the functionality of the cat, it also catches fueling problems that wouldn't otherwise be caught until it's too late.

We approach this problem a little differently for street applications. We actually retune the ECU so that it recognizes the new values from the hi-flow cat as normal. This prevents the light from coming on unless something else is wrong. In my view, this is a much better way to do it because it preserves the functionality of the car's CEL system.

So why haven't we released this for the 124, when we did for the 500? It's because there are no hi-flow cats on the market for the 124. I am sure there will be soon, but until then, we have no way of testing one of these products to get the measurements needed to know what changes need to be made to extinguish that light. Sure, we could just shut off the light, but that's not really how we roll.

Greg
Well, we got a chicken and egg issue of which comes first. We have not released the highflow cat pending an ECU vendor like you offering the solution. I like the approach you suggest of teaching the ECU to recognize the new values from the highflow cat as normal, let us know when we can buy a Fiat 124 Clone Ecu with that feature or otherwise help that feature see the light of day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,442 Posts
Yes, but that's not the case with our engines. Remember the Euro 500 Abarth has a Bosch ECU, which is totally different than the Magneti Marelli unit in our 124s and US 500s.

Greg
Are the Euro 124s different, too? Or are ALL 124s on Magneti Marelli?

What would be the reasoning by having different ECUs? Are they the same hardware programmed differently, or different physical hardware (I'd guess the physical CPU board inside is the same, but different box)?
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
3,662 Posts
Are the Euro 124s different, too? Or are ALL 124s on Magneti Marelli?

What would be the reasoning by having different ECUs? Are they the same hardware programmed differently, or different physical hardware (I'd guess the physical CPU board inside is the same, but different box)?
In Europe the 500 Abarth has the NON Multiair 1.4 with Bosch fuel injection.

In the USA our 1.4s are all Multiair with the Magneti Marelli ECU. This is actually an upgrade. Before the 124 showed up, if you wanted this engine in sporty car in Europe you had to buy a much more expensive Alfa Romeo.

Fiat puts the 1.4 Multiair with the MM ECU in all 124s worldwide.

The MM ECU is totally different from the Bosch ECU. They have nothing in common and seem as if they were designed on different planets.

Greg
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
3,662 Posts
OK, update from Toby on the Hi Flow cat CEL.

In my defense, I must say that I was a bit out of the loop, I haven't been home in about 7 weeks, and I am currently in Kuwait. It turns out that Toby has been working on this and has it done.

In other words, at this moment we can delete the cat CEL on the 124. We plan to release this feature with Phase 2.

Greg
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top