Fiat 124 Spider Forum banner

21 - 40 of 49 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Alison, it's great that you're cruising the owner forum, but you really need to spend a few moments to read the contents of a thread before you reply to it. In this case, the OP is from the UK, and some of your fellow staff have provided him with contact info for Fiat support in England. And no one has heard back from him in six months, so we have no idea if it was resolved or not, and if resolved, how. That's what the latest poster was enquiring about, and that person is in the Philippines. Perhaps you can provide him with contact info for Fiat support in that country?
OK. Please can you remind me of exact issue your are having ?
Due to the pandemic, I didnt have the time to start the car as I am always at home. Car is parked in the office. after a month of not starting the car, car can't start. We hooked it up and saw the immobilizer is the culprit. Now we tried to reset the key and try to pair the 2 keys through witech and still it wont finish the pairing because when witech is asking us to start the car it still cant be recognized. So pairing can not be continued.

This is what we tried so far.
1. Put new battery on the 2 key fob.
2. Put a new battery on the car.
3. Checked for Blown fuse and everything is ok.
4. Checked if the fuel pump is working and its working by removing the fuel line and fuel is being pump out.
5. checked if the injectors is spraying fuel and it did spray for a second and stopped so we know its working but it was cut by the immobilizer.
6. We tried PCM replace and after the 7minutes waiting time it says Negative Response:0x22 Unable to send unlock to the RFH. Please restart route and try again. Still PCM replace did not work for us.

Codes that came up:
1. P1524-00 Oil Pressure Out of Range - Camshaft Advance/Retard Disabled
2. P0513-00 Invalid SKIM Key
3. U0415-00 Invalid Data Received from ABS Control Module
4. B1238-16 Speaker Amplifier circuit voltage below threshold
5. B13D3-97 Immobilizer transmitter Component or System Operation Obstructed or Blocked
6. B13D3-94 Immobilizer transmitter - Unexpected Opertation

On the BCM, it states on the immobilizer Security Access Status is DENIED. This should be True i think. Immobilizer Delivery Mode is Service Mode, I might be wrong but this maybe should be customer mode?

Would the immobilizer module be the fault? Is the 2 key fob faulty? Could someone from FCA remotely access our witech so they can see whats happening? The car is just 1000km in mileage, its new.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Hi all,

I can't get my Keyless Start to pick up either key. I've replaced the batteries in both keys with verified good batteries (I have another 124 that I tested the battery in the key for keyless start worked). The keys unlock the car perfectly. I am able to get into ACC mode but the Start button flashes orange when I press the clutch to start because it is not picking the key up. The Green key symbol on the speedo does not light. Only the Red Anti theft symbol illuminates (Which i believe is normal).

It's worth noting the car had been sitting for months. About a week ago I revived it with a Jump from my other car. The keyless was playing up then but I just thought that was due to the dead battery as eventually it picked the key up. It had pretty bad moisture in the cabin which I think is probably the cause of this failure I did leave it running for a couple of hours last week with heaters fully on and windows slightly cracked to dehumidify but don't think I did a complete job and now in order to dry it out I need to start the car :/ However all the other electronics in the car are working A ok.

I have no errors in the infotainment nor have I seen an amber flash on the speedo indicating the car is aware of a keyless issue.

I have tried putting both keys up to the start button LOTS of times (I even removed the interior trim to expose the greet start button module. All looked okay and the key was right up against the PCB. No joy)

I've read tens of threads about various issues on here and miata forum, most of which seem to be rooted in bad batteries. I've read there is a procedure where you hold the Start/stop button which forces the car to start. However I can't seem to get it to do it (I held the button for well over 60s in both ACC and OFF positions).

I have checked the main fuse box in the bay and passenger side, I can't see any blown fuses but I have no idea where the fuse is that would relate to ignition as it doesn't seem to be pointed out in any of the manuals. I'm guessing its probably just part of one of the main engine management fuses.

This car is just two months out of warranty and is a track car only so I'd rather not have to pay multiple hundreds of £££ to get this sorted. I know the antenna module is buried in the dash so could get in there and try and diagnose but to be honest I'd rather just completely subvert it all. I haven't even seen anywhere I can get ahold of any replacement modules for keyless start (I found a Start button replacement from a wrecker but really don't think the button is the issue). I've seen there is a dealer tool called WiTech in the US but is expensive and hard to get ahold of but could diagnose/reregister the keys.

What are my options for starting the car? or Any way of just completely bypassing this keyless system, installing my own? Has anyone ever been able to do that force start procedure in the manual?
Anything I should get open to do diagnostics or check connectors or anyting?
Can a dead battery bork the Keyless system somehow?
Any ideas on how I can dry out the cabin without power?

I really really wish they had just put a f**king ignition barrel on the steering column.

Thanks in advance for any support
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
I already got my car to work. Its putting few drops of oil on the small ball bearing while pushing the ball down to make the oil go down to the multiair system. Just do this until the multiair is full of oil. Then put the car on battery booster. Crank a few times and viola.. engine start! Im surprised by alot of wrong information regarding what to do on that ball bearing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter #27
Hi guys, sorry for the AWOL. Pandemic kinda threw a spanner (heh) into the works that is my life.

TLDR; Sergey from mx5things helped me figure out a way to get the car started so I could drive it with the issue present and get it to the dealer. Issue is sorted (kind of), I don't really know how it got fixed. I'm confused and exasperated.

Luckily I've come to work with Sergey from mx5things.com on some CANBUS dumps in the past and went to him with this issue. As in my previous post through a flaw in the design of the window controls and roof mechanism. My windows were half cracked with absolutely no way to get them up in beautiful sunny England while outside (Luckily I have off-street parking). He suggested removing the ignition relay and shorting the ignition relay. This worked a treat. I was able to get the ignition on and get my windows up. But what was even more crazy was that after shorting the relay the car would then pick up my keys... Watch the video below.


So that is fine and was enough to allow me to at least drive the car to the dealer. Huge shout out to Sergey this guy's knowledge and awareness of this platform is incredible. Sergey had a suspicion that one of the modules responsible for listening out for the key codes was not waking up from its low power state. This ignition trick would force it to wake and would last for about 10 minutes or so after doing the trick or turning the car off.

They looked at the car for a while and told me that the module responsible for the key detection is not able to detect a "VFR" (I might have misheard the acronym) Signal. Don't really know what that means but seems to confirm Sergey's suspicion about a module not waking up. They have told me that that due to a blocked drain that rain that should have been draining down the A pillar is not. And that they need to go completely dash out and clean out a "multi plug" again not a term I'm familiar with. Which should resolve the issue. To do this work they wanted £800 equating to 7 hours work from a tech... This is probably about 1/10th of the entire cars value.

Suffice to say, I told them to leave it and I'd figure something else out. I was contemplating actually just selling the car at this point. The car sat in their lot for a few months because pandemic things. Interesting is that we had some unusually dry and hot weather which should have helped with a lot of the moisture that was building up.

So I went to the dealer to pick the car up. Paid their extortionate fees for the "Investigation" into the issues (These techs must be earning twice what I do an hour as a software developer, an absolute joke). I organised for a recovery truck to meet me there as I didn't know if I could start the car and by this point it didn't have or could pass MOT if they can't start the car.

I get in the car....and.... it picks up the key and starts first time. No ignition relay trick. I'm at a loss. Recovery driver looks at me like "Why am I here?" funnily enough I was thinking the same thing as him.

Did the dry and warm weather kill some moisture and fix something? Maybe.

Did the dealer "fix" the issue by rebinding my keys with their tools and just try to extort me out of more cash. Not implausible.

Is it because despite this car basically being a mazda it bears the badge of a FIAT (Fix it again tommorrow) and so refuses to be anything but a bipolar hot mess. Quite likely.

So, this issue is miraculously fixed. I do still have my Start/Stop blinking orange when the car is on. I have read the OBD codes and there is a Key Detection Error Code present. I haven't cleared it because to be honest I don't want to change anything and have the issue return.

That's where I'm at. The car is about to get put up on the ramp and begin it's strip down and rebuild so I plan on meticulously checking every bit I can access and seeing if there are any visible issues. Theres a potential for rats/mice gnawing on some of the innards. If the issue rears it's head again at least I have a somewhat reliable method to get the car started with the relay trick.

It's worth noting that this issue only arose after jump starting the car from my other 124 AND then leaving this car to sit for a few months. I can't be sure if that was the cause as I still don't know what the issue was. An interesting thing to note is that the dealer I took the car also had a display vehicle that had the exact same issue after sitting for a while and needing a jump start. The issue being no key detection. Seems to be like a perfect storm scenario of a car sitting for a while, moisture build up then a jump start causes some issue.

Remedies I tried:
Disconnecting the battery, Trickle charging the main battery to 12.8v, replacing fuses and relays (I'm lucky enough to have 2 124s so I could swap known good compnents across), OBD Bluetooth tools, replace remote batteries, try "manual" start by pushing the start stop button with the tip of the remotes. And probably a million other things I can't remember. None of the above had any affect on this issue.

FYI for anyone interested in how I closed the windows without being able to get into Ignition On mode see below for a written guide:

Take a look at this diagram
https://www.hexorcism.com/16ND/wp-co...conn/F_01.html

Relay R1 (IG relay) is what you want to remove. It is the relay closest to the front of the car.
You then want to short (with a jumper/wire) pins C and D (Marked as blue "L" blocks on the diagram)

A big thanks to Sergey from Innovative Accessories for Mazda MX-5, Fiat 124 from MX5things for this insight!
This link he has provided is also an amazing resource that I have never been aware of before for the MK4: 2016 ND Shop Manual | ND Shop Manual

I already got my car to work. Its putting few drops of oil on the small ball bearing while pushing the ball down to make the oil go down to the multiair system. Just do this until the multiair is full of oil. Then put the car on battery booster. Crank a few times and viola.. engine start! Im surprised by alot of wrong information regarding what to do on that ball bearing.
Glad to hear you got it sorted! Any issues let me know and I'll do my best to help out. You are lucky to have access to a WiTech device they are very helpful.

I've found them extremely difficult/expensive to get ahold of or even a shop willing to just work with me transparently on this issue so we could figure it out together and I can actually understand what went wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Thought I would just add to this

I appear to have the same issue as Ricehead.

Car not starting/failing to give a green light on start button.

Car had been stood outside and wasnt starting (presumably due to lack of oil in multi-air brick) but was turning over.
Battery ran down so I tried my trickle charger but no joy so I bought a new charger and connected that.
Left overnight but then start button would no longer turn green
Tried most of the above in this thread but no joy.#

Called Abarth as car still under warranty, guy came out and tried for over an hour but couldnt get engine to turn over. He is convinced that it is a hardware fault as he cant get it to jump from his van etc and cant get the start button to go green
He called a tow to local dealership for next day.
Dealership connect a new battery and car turns over and starts once they have bled air, so they say battery dead (apparently battery is not covered under warranty either).
However they then reconnect old battery (they may have needed to charge) and its starting fine.
I asked about diagnostics and he said there where a bunch of errors but all about battery voltage and none about key recognition

They were going to return the car as fixed but I have spoken to the workshop manager and they are going to keep hold of car for a few days and try restarting it periodically to see if the problem reoccurs so they can then assess it.

Car has a few months left on warranty......

I will update if anything is found
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
491 Posts
I drive mine year round and these cars just don’t like to sit around when it is cold. It has to be the battery since last year although I made a concerted effort to start and drive the car at least once a week, this year even after 3 to 4 days there is just a little hesitation before it turns over. (I usually hear a clicking noise behind and to my left. Might be the fuel pump pressurizing the system).

And forgot about flying anywhere and leaving the car outside in the lot for a week plus.

I have checked and keep the water levels up in the battery, but I will probably get a new no maintenance one this spring when I do the oil change.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Yes ours was meant to be daily driver but covid and another kicking from real life put that to rest last year :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,074 Posts
Thought I would just add to this

I appear to have the same issue as Ricehead.

Car not starting/failing to give a green light on start button.

Car had been stood outside and wasnt starting (presumably due to lack of oil in multi-air brick) but was turning over.
Battery ran down so I tried my trickle charger but no joy so I bought a new charger and connected that.
Left overnight but then start button would no longer turn green
Tried most of the above in this thread but no joy.#

Called Abarth as car still under warranty, guy came out and tried for over an hour but couldnt get engine to turn over. He is convinced that it is a hardware fault as he cant get it to jump from his van etc and cant get the start button to go green
He called a tow to local dealership for next day.
Dealership connect a new battery and car turns over and starts once they have bled air, so they say battery dead (apparently battery is not covered under warranty either).
However they then reconnect old battery (they may have needed to charge) and its starting fine.
I asked about diagnostics and he said there where a bunch of errors but all about battery voltage and none about key recognition

They were going to return the car as fixed but I have spoken to the workshop manager and they are going to keep hold of car for a few days and try restarting it periodically to see if the problem reoccurs so they can then assess it.

Car has a few months left on warranty......

I will update if anything is found
HI. ... could I ask out of curiosity what year is your car and when were the key fob batteries last replaced ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter #32 (Edited)
Thought I would just add to this

I appear to have the same issue as Ricehead.

Car not starting/failing to give a green light on start button.

Car had been stood outside and wasnt starting (presumably due to lack of oil in multi-air brick) but was turning over.
Battery ran down so I tried my trickle charger but no joy so I bought a new charger and connected that.
Left overnight but then start button would no longer turn green
Tried most of the above in this thread but no joy.#

Called Abarth as car still under warranty, guy came out and tried for over an hour but couldnt get engine to turn over. He is convinced that it is a hardware fault as he cant get it to jump from his van etc and cant get the start button to go green
He called a tow to local dealership for next day.
Dealership connect a new battery and car turns over and starts once they have bled air, so they say battery dead (apparently battery is not covered under warranty either).
However they then reconnect old battery (they may have needed to charge) and its starting fine.
I asked about diagnostics and he said there where a bunch of errors but all about battery voltage and none about key recognition

They were going to return the car as fixed but I have spoken to the workshop manager and they are going to keep hold of car for a few days and try restarting it periodically to see if the problem reoccurs so they can then assess it.

Car has a few months left on warranty......

I will update if anything is found

Sucks to hear about this. It does seem our cars are a tad sensitive to being idle and the weather.... Which dealer have you gone to may I ask?

Did you try jumping the Ignition relay yourself like I did in the video to see if it recognised the key afterwards? I appreciate it may be a technical and somewhat involved thing to do but this really helped me isolate the issue and give the dealer as much information as possible (Mainly because they charge huge sums of money per hour when you are out of warranty and their ineptitude at times knows no bounds)

To this day I still have the blinking orange start button. However the car does start. It seems that while my car was at the dealer and they were "investigating" the issue had "fixed itself" even though I refused to pay for the repairs which apparently was a "dash out job because their was a corroded multiplug behind there at a cost of over £800". What I think in actuality happened was that they rebound the keys to my car and that fixed the issue. They charged me £250 to do so.... Not sure how the keys can unbind themselves from the car though even if there is power loss

I can put the OBD scanner back in and show you the error I have. It does mention the key ignition security system specifically on the DTC faults. I'm just too scared to clear it in case I can't start the car again.

Do keep us updated on the issue. The dealer I went to seemed to know exactly what I was talking about when I went to them with this which is a very worrying sign.

I have other plans for ECU management on my car, in which a lot of the stock BCM functionality will become redundant as I transition it more and more to a track car. I can recommend [] for help with utilising a more track and tuning focused ECU on our car. They have been immensely helpful to me
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Sucks to hear about this. It does seem our cars are a tad sensitive to being idle and the weather.... Which dealer have you gone to may I ask?

Did you try jumping the Ignition relay yourself like I did in the video to see if it recognised the key afterwards? I appreciate it may be a technical and somewhat involved thing to do but this really helped me isolate the issue and give the dealer as much information as possible (Mainly because they charge huge sums of money per hour when you are out of warranty and their ineptitude at times knows no bounds)

To this day I still have the blinking orange start button. However the car does start. It seems that while my car was at the dealer and they were "investigating" the issue had "fixed itself" even though I refused to pay for the repairs which apparently was a "dash out job because their was a corroded multiplug behind there at a cost of over £800". What I think in actuality happened was that they rebound the keys to my car and that fixed the issue. They charged me £250 to do so.... Not sure how the keys can unbind themselves from the car though even if there is power loss

I can put the OBD scanner back in and show you the error I have. It does mention the key ignition security system specifically on the DTC faults. I'm just too scared to clear it in case I can't start the car again.

Do keep us updated on the issue. The dealer I went to seemed to know exactly what I was talking about when I went to them with this which is a very worrying sign.

I have other plans for ECU management on my car, in which a lot of the stock BCM functionality will become redundant as I transition it more and more to a track car. I can recommend MRS Electronic (EU) for help with utilising a more track and tuning focused ECU on our car. They have been immensely helpful to me

Hiya

Its with Lincoln Stoneacre, Adam the workshop manager seemed genuine and sensible so I am hopeful he will look at it should the problem reoccur.

I am getting them to give it a service whilst its in there too, but probably going to look at the brakes that need doing myself as you say dealer costs ouch :)

The call out mechanic from fiat/abarth told me to send all keys back with the tow truck as he suspected they had unbound or the key security unit in the car was faulty.

I have bought a couple of those damp removing packs you can microwave to dry out and reuse to pop in the car as I think your suspicion about damp possibly being an issue could be a goer.

I will come back to you about error codes if I feel the need if thats okay.

I cant see me getting it tuned, my wife already complains enough about the way I drive it now :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Thanks for the info. And yes, lockdown has seriously hampered thoughts of my next European Road Trip !!!. Out if interest, where approx are you in the UK.... I'm South East Wales.
We are over in Lincolnshire.

I know what you mean about road trips, we had talked about driving through to my brother in Estepona before the whole thing kicked off.
Still theres always next year :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,074 Posts
Lincolnshire..... the county of my birth (RAF parents !!!). And Esptepona..... I know it well. I was heading there on my 124 European Road Trip back in July..... diverted to South of France due to rising Covid numbers. Thee keys ??? That is unusual I think !!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
491 Posts
Both of my key fob batteries died literally in the same week. The one I always use, and the one that hangs on the hook inside the house. From when the car was new it was probably about 2 1/2 years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Update


Dealer cannot recreate the problem so I have brought the car home after having them give it a service.
All is operating as it should as soon as you press your foot down on the clutch immediate green light on start button.

So my current working theories are either
1. Damp in somewhere and dried out a bit on way to dealership
2. Something to do with computer management and attaching jump leads or charger.

I will update should the problem reoccur

As an aside, as Arthur mentioned it the, reason I have 3 keys. On its first service my wife paid the dealership £10 per key for them to change batteries, they broke a plastic lug on the key fob as they were doing this and then returned it to us. I was less than impressed and after a bit of back and forth they agreed a new key was in order. I have since changed all the batteries myself without any issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,074 Posts
Update


Dealer cannot recreate the problem so I have brought the car home after having them give it a service.
All is operating as it should as soon as you press your foot down on the clutch immediate green light on start button.

So my current working theories are either
1. Damp in somewhere and dried out a bit on way to dealership
2. Something to do with computer management and attaching jump leads or charger.

I will update should the problem reoccur

As an aside, as Arthur mentioned it the, reason I have 3 keys. On its first service my wife paid the dealership £10 per key for them to change batteries, they broke a plastic lug on the key fob as they were doing this and then returned it to us. I was less than impressed and after a bit of back and forth they agreed a new key was in order. I have since changed all the batteries myself without any issue.
Thanks for the update. Regards your original problem, it is imperative to replace all fob batteries at 12 month intervals.
In the absence of any further evidence, I believe this is what your issue was. Glad it is now sorted.
 
21 - 40 of 49 Posts
Top